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skoop wrote:what about the good ol flavio coming back?
You know nothing - nothing - about a rescue deal makes any sense, given the debt load, until you add in the Bernie Ecclestone Factor.
With Bernie in the mix, literally anything is possible. Think about the dynamic with Ecclestone acting as the deal broker and underwriter.
The Ferrari engine debt and the bank overdraft becomes something that can be paid off from 2014 prize monies, with Bernie underwriting engine supply continuation with his buddies in Maranello; a massive haircut on the debt load to the Cheglakovs can be somehow made more easy for them to swallow, now that they have seen the inside of the barrel of the gun of a full liquidation to zeroski - maybe they get a percentage of future prize monies from New Marussia, again underwritten by gurantees from BE, if they take a 90% haircut. Of course BE will want his stake in the venture, probably some kind of indirect participation.
But Bernie will also need his own eyes on the project. Planting Flavio in place as a manager, he'd be assured of someone who knows how to do the job of taking a tailender to the front, and who has a strong allegiance.
Couple that with the vision of a rejuvenated, now viable team that could be re-branded Audi, as an option for 2016-17...
Well, there you have the skeleton of a plausible deal.
This signature is encrypted to avoid complaints, but it makes me laugh out loud:-
16S75 13E7K 41C53 7CT23 14O5O 67R32 76175 90B67 L4L42 41O63 72W56 98M10 52E87
turbof1 wrote:I can't say I have worked in a small racing team, but I do can say I have had contact with one particular guy. You have to understand this: Yes, these people need to make a living and will eventually have to move on. With a very heavy heart. But that being said, a smaller team like Marussia is more a family then a team. They back this family, even close to being fully disbanded, all the way through. I personally believe that they'll come back to the team, even if that means quitting their jobs at an other team, if by any means contractual possible.
F1 by its very nature (short term, seasonal, volatile and specialist) lends itself to contract/self employed/consultant work and the industry is pretty heavy with contractors. These guys are (to put it bluntly but not insultingly) mercenaries, who follow the work and the money.
I suspect a lot of these guys may have had there fingers burnt and will now be 'creditors' of the old team so will rather stay where the money is paid on time.
Also employment for design engineers in the UK is seriously short on labour so people can pick and choose and I bet many will have got a pay rise when they left Marussia.
Its known around the industry that the guys at Marussia did a good job with what they had which stands them in good stead for re-employment.
Lastly If Marussia are resurrected it will be in a new factory that could be miles away from Banbury and also possibly/probably run by an existing race team.
For these reasons I doubt many ex-Marussia employees would return, mainly because I suspect (and hope) many are better off now.
Yes and no. I can fully understand your reasoning and in any other case I wouldn't be argueing it. However, as mentioned: these men and women have become family of eachother. There come a lot of irrational and sentimental elements into play. For instance the guy I spoke with insisted on seeing out whatever small chance the team still got to return to the grid, before landing a job somewhere else. It's not far fetched a lot of the people at Marussia had the same frame of mind.
And I can understand that too. After all, while F1 is sport with a dominant technical and rational base, it remains a team sport, which means emotion plays a big factor, especially in smaller teams, where everybody litterally knows everybody.
These guys would be willing to traverse half the globe if it could save the team. I think new accomodations is the least of their worries.
turbof1 wrote:I can't say I have worked in a small racing team, but I do can say I have had contact with one particular guy. You have to understand this: Yes, these people need to make a living and will eventually have to move on. With a very heavy heart. But that being said, a smaller team like Marussia is more a family then a team. They back this family, even close to being fully disbanded, all the way through. I personally believe that they'll come back to the team, even if that means quitting their jobs at an other team, if by any means contractual possible.
F1 by its very nature (short term, seasonal, volatile and specialist) lends itself to contract/self employed/consultant work and the industry is pretty heavy with contractors. These guys are (to put it bluntly but not insultingly) mercenaries, who follow the work and the money.
I suspect a lot of these guys may have had there fingers burnt and will now be 'creditors' of the old team so will rather stay where the money is paid on time.
Also employment for design engineers in the UK is seriously short on labour so people can pick and choose and I bet many will have got a pay rise when they left Marussia.
Its known around the industry that the guys at Marussia did a good job with what they had which stands them in good stead for re-employment.
Lastly If Marussia are resurrected it will be in a new factory that could be miles away from Banbury and also possibly/probably run by an existing race team.
For these reasons I doubt many ex-Marussia employees would return, mainly because I suspect (and hope) many are better off now.
Yes and no. I can fully understand your reasoning and in any other case I wouldn't be argueing it. However, as mentioned: these men and women have become family of eachother. There come a lot of irrational and sentimental elements into play. For instance the guy I spoke with insisted on seeing out whatever small chance the team still got to return to the grid, before landing a job somewhere else. It's not far fetched a lot of the people at Marussia had the same frame of mind.
And I can understand that too. After all, while F1 is sport with a dominant technical and rational base, it remains a team sport, which means emotion plays a big factor, especially in smaller teams, where everybody litterally knows everybody.
These guys would be willing to traverse half the globe if it could save the team. I think new accomodations is the least of their worries.
I think we're on the same page but my main point is that an F1 team will have a high proportion of contract staff who very likely wont share the same sentimentality as full timers. Was the guy you spoke to full-time? I generally run in contractor circles and the ex-Marussia CV's have been out in the job market for a long while now. For instance at the last F1 place I worked about 50% of the engineering staff where contract.
Also its been a long time now to not get paid (4 months?) anyone would struggle to survive that long without pay. If a rescue deal happens that will be 5 months without pay, even the most loyal employee will struggle to survive that, especially living around Oxford where the rental/house/consumable prices are mental.
I think they'll get some staff but I think the boat has been missed somewhat, I feel the same about all the equipment which will have to be replenished. The "Marussia team" may be more of a bargain now but bet it would have been cheaper in the long term to buy it up as a continuation in October.
It does make me worry slightly that some unscrupulous type has spotted an opportunity to by a skeleton team, pocket the prize money, bring in two big money pay drivers pocket their money and then just run the team into the ground with 2014 cars trundling round at the back.
"A pretentious quote taken out of context to make me look deep" - Some old racing driver
A full timer yes. And indeed, it would have been defnitely cheaper and less of an effort to have bought it in October.
Imo, finding replacements for those who have irreversably left will not be such an issue. It's reasonably to believe they will only need race engineers, technicians and parts suppliers to get to Melbourne. Aerodynamicists will be for now the least of their worries, so they can easily go scooping around in lower formula classes.
The biggest questions is: what about the 2014 price money? I think that'll be the most crucial piece since it'll allow any potentional new owner to pay off the debts and have the budget for the first couple of races.
The thing is, now Haas has aquired the Marussia base (is that fact?) then even if a buyer does come along, where will they operate out of? Or is the base, kind of "sold subject to contract" which could be broken? I doubt Haas would rent the base back to the team, otherwise where will he be building his base?
I don't know how much BE is involved with this though. He doesn't need to worry about 1 less team showing up because he's already got contractys signed for 3 car teams if needed. He/CVC would gain by not giving Marussia their prize money.
Basically, I'm finding pro's & con's for buying Marussia or just leaving it well alone. I hope someone buy's it though! Everyone loves an under-dog story, right?!
KeiKo403 wrote:But doesn't Marussia going forward still be entitled to prize money. Isn't there a rule about finishing in the top x positions for 2 years in a row to be entitled to prize money/showing up money? I seem to remember that last year or the one before that I wiould've been advantagous for Caterham/Marussia to switch positions and split some $50m each? I can't remember the specifics but hopefully someone will.
Could a situation like that be a good selling point?)
Yes indeed, if Haas did buy Marussia and raced one year earlier than expected he would get an extra ~$133m in prize money (assuming Caterham aren't revived and no other new teams, Haas would get 3 extra cat1 payments and a cat2 payment for 9th in 2014 and a cat2 payment for 10th(?) in 2015), although he would then probably lose the £30m bond he's paid to enter as a new team.
It's been confirmed by Haas that it indeed won't be haas.
"Explain the ending to F1 in football terms"
"Hamilton was beating Verstappen 7-0, then the ref decided F%$& rules, next goal wins
while also sending off 4 Hamilton players to make it more interesting"
How much do you reckon Marussia's debt is? Anyone buying Marussia not only gets this year's price money (which must be less than their debt or they would not have gone into administration). The buyer also gets the price money for 2015 assuming that he can beat the 107% rule and finish the year in the top ten (price money only for doing it 2 years in 3). With 10 teams in 2015, that is about 100% likely, so the demise of Caterham and Haas waiting until 2016 just made buying Marussia a positive money affair... probably.
Last edited by hollus on 24 Jan 2015, 13:50, edited 1 time in total.
WilliamsF1 wrote:
There was no point to buying in October last year as the price would have been high with the entire debt burden
but now as the creditors know they will get next to nothing after the initial auction, now it will be a case of most of the debt being written off
The new buyer will probably will be trying to get the entire debt written off in which case he will only have to worry about the next years budget
I must admit that I was thinking the same but I then kept thinking the only issue with that is the Ferrari PU $M's.
Sauber are in an awful place right now (if 2014 was anything to go by) and it's no secret that they have money issues.
A way around this would be "free PU's" when any new investor for Marussia puts Vergne & another Ferrari man in the cars.
Just an after thought, could Bianchi's accident still be a stalling point in negotiations? Who's responsible for the cost of his care?
i don't think there's anything 'Bianchi' to the Marussia situation.
It was a (freak) racing accident. Who's to blame? Essentialy, nobody but Bianchi himself, even if he didn't make a mistake.
The crane operators or the Japanese Track exploitant is not to blame, they were doing their job correct. It's not their fault a car runs into them. There were no technical errors or malfuntions to the car, so Marussia is not to be blamed as being cause for the accident. The FIA washed their hands in innocense - i still feel that's unfair because the race should have been ended prematurely due to the extreme weather conditions paired with the race delay and darkness setting in and just genuinly being dangerous, especially with the storm coming up, but the report states FIA has no blame. Did Bianchi drive too fast? It's stated not. Did he make a mistake? I don't know, but aquaplaning in such circumstances is not too hard, so it probably would be more a fact of cause and effect instead of 'driver error'.
The only real blame lies with Bianchi himself in a very 'cold', but simple reason; Bianchi chose to enter the race for himself. The same goes for every driver, every race participation. There is the involved risk factor, which will always be there.
I'm not even sure whether there is any form of real insurance against situations like this.
Which leads me to conclude that Bianchi might be himself paying for his own treatment. Which could eventually lead to the end of the treatment if he doesn't 'recover' in time (it goes like that for us the same, as cold and harsh as that is, though it depends on medical care regulations in the respective countries).
Anyway, Marussia will not be in any way 'responsible' or 'paying' for Bianchi's treatment.
They could, out of gesture and respect, however, choose to spend a certain amount of money to aid in the care/treatment. But that is voluntary. I don't expect they're able to demand something from any potential buyer.
Remember, if the team isn't 'bought', then they won't have any money to spend either. And if the 'auction' is completed altogehter, then there is nothing left to have 'income' to fund this 'samaritan' funding.
So no, there is no way Bianchi is a factor in Marussia negotiations.
How there could be any reasonable possibility for the 'team' to ever appear on track is beyond me though. They can't use the 2015 prototype or designs as they are in Haas' posession and he controls the rights [though he could sell it back if he wants to]. That means any 'buyer' will have to do with the 2014 car, with the 2014 powerplant, but will have to adjust the nose to meet requirements. This offcourse would not be the general biggest issue, i think they can fit the rules in not too much effort - but they MUST find a way to keep the car within the 107% rule.
Which is definately a lot harder if you'd concider they have ample time to have things ready before melbourne, without a factory/team HQ location, with an outdated engine (2015 engines will have more power and reliability), and a loss of aero due to nose changes, different tire compounds, and little means for maintainance. They have no drivers, but offcourse if they'd have Ferrari engines, Guiterrez and Vergne could be housed in a 'Manor' car instead of Haas as i'd assume before that.
The biggest question however will be; do we actually want this to happen? A [potentially dangerously] slow backmarker ala HRT at it's final straws which presumably will be just seated there for the money they 'raise'.
As harsh as it sounds, i'd rather have both of them gone and go to rest. Either way there is NO possibility that they would ever improve. At best, the outfit will be worse in 2015 than they could ever have been in 2014. With zero possibility of improvement.
Rather 'die' now with respect, instead of fade into the background with disgust in the hands of dubious people with dubious motives and dangerous surroundings.
"Explain the ending to F1 in football terms"
"Hamilton was beating Verstappen 7-0, then the ref decided F%$& rules, next goal wins
while also sending off 4 Hamilton players to make it more interesting"
