Merc lack of dominance

[dans79]

another point that i have not seen mentioned here. at the beginning of lap 3 right before the safety car came out Vettel was within DRS range of hamilton. kinder on the tires/ faster in a straight line and with drs... what do you guys think the outcome would have been without a safety car?

point # 2: the safety car helped mercedes more than it hurt them.... hamilton would have lost 20+ seconds( maybe less if he was ahead) to vettel if the first stop in his 3 stopper was made under normal conditions. im thinking vettel had a pretty good shot of winning this race regardless of the safety car.

Merc made 2 massive
1) biasing the car to heavily towards a potential wet race
2) pitting way to early.
- they should have stayed out, and made Vettel make a pass, and eat up his tires.
- they extended all the other stints because of it

[giantfan10]

another point that i have not seen mentioned here. at the beginning of lap 3 right before the safety car came out Vettel was within DRS range of hamilton. kinder on the tires/ faster in a straight line and with drs... what do you guys think the outcome would have been without a safety car?

point # 2: the safety car helped mercedes more than it hurt them.... hamilton would have lost 20+ seconds( maybe less if he was ahead) to vettel if the first stop in his 3 stopper was made under normal conditions. im thinking vettel had a pretty good shot of winning this race regardless of the safety car.

Merc made 2 massive
1) biasing the car to heavily towards a potential wet race
2) pitting way to early.
- they should have stayed out, and made Vettel make a pass, and eat up his tires.
- they extended all the other stints because of it

biasing the car heavily towards a wet race? i think thats nonsense and even if they did, that would be their choice and should not be used as an excuse as to why they were beaten.
im not buying that one.

[Wayne DR]

Merc made several fundamental errors:

1) They went out on Mediums straight up in Q1 of Quali, basically telling everyone else they wanted to run the Hards in the race. (This is when Hamilton's race weekend was over, and when Ferrari got a sniff...)

2) They pitted both cars during the Safety Car, which got them both caught up in traffic, allowing Vettel to open up a 10 sec gap. (This would still not have helped Hamilton, as he needed to 3 stop anyway. It would have actually cost him 2-3 seconds, putting him 11 seconds behind Vettel at the finish.)

3) Stacking the cars at the Safety Car pit stop totally compromised Rosberg's race. He came out 9th, and wasn't able to get into free space until lap 14, when he finally got past Hulkenberg (just before he pitted). I am unsure why they didn't split the strategy to cover off Ferrari, too cocky maybe? (Just tell Rosberg to stay out, if Vettel stays out...)

4) It looked like Rosberg did have a shot at 2 stopping (Pitting on 17 and 38), which would have put him in the hunt at the end with Vettel (but he still would have been 3-4 seconds off the pace). This would have REALLY pissed Hamilton off!!!


Hamilton's comment when he came out of the pits after his last stop when he realised he was on the Primes (Hard) was absolute GOLD! "Guys, we're on the wrong tyres!" and the then Team then proceed to tell him he had no "Options" left, followed by a request to find a second a lap a little later...


Merc has now had a wake up call. There will be tracks that favour them, but it may not go their way all season.

GAME ON!!! =D>

[Harsha]

Merc made several fundamental errors:

1) They went out on Mediums straight up in Q1 of Quali, basically telling everyone else they wanted to run the Hards in the race. (This is when Hamilton's race weekend was over, and when Ferrari got a sniff...)

2) They pitted both cars during the Safety Car, which got them both caught up in traffic, allowing Vettel to open up a 10 sec gap. (This would still not have helped Hamilton, as he needed to 3 stop anyway. It would have actually cost him 2-3 seconds, putting him 11 seconds behind Vettel at the finish.)

3) Stacking the cars at the Safety Car pit stop totally compromised Rosberg's race. He came out 9th, and wasn't able to get into free space until lap 14, when he finally got past Hulkenberg (just before he pitted). I am unsure why they didn't split the strategy to cover off Ferrari, too cocky maybe? (Just tell Rosberg to stay out, if Vettel stays out...)

4) It looked like Rosberg did have a shot at 2 stopping (Pitting on 17 and 38), which would have put him in the hunt at the end with Vettel (but he still would have been 3-4 seconds off the pace). This would have REALLY pissed Hamilton off!!!


Hamilton's comment when he came out of the pits after his last stop when he realised he was on the Primes (Hard) was absolute GOLD! "Guys, we're on the wrong tyres!" and the then Team then proceed to tell him he had no "Options" left, followed by a request to find a second a lap a little later...


Merc has now had a wake up call. There will be tracks that favour them, but it may not go their way all season.

GAME ON!!! =D>

It really is Game on Nico Rosberg in many ways but he him self said it. If Ferrari keep on improving it only helps Lewis than Nico him self.
But yeah who ever has the strategy penned in Merc will got pinned to the wall by toto and paddy for sure. They gave ferrari a sniff and Ferrari said thank you very much and "dominated" the race for most part when Mercs are looking for pace on older tires. I think the real season will start for Merc after spain where Ferrari and Merc both will put their bigger upgrade packages. If Ferrari got their deficit on over all performance cut down and breathing on their Merc diffusers that would be a hell of season for F1 this year

[SiLo]

This was a situation where Merc screwed up, and Ferrari got everything right. I really think there isn't much else to discuss here.

I do however, wonder if they slow lap behind the safety car helps extend the live of Vettels tyres a little though for the first stint.

[turbof1]

This was a situation where Merc screwed up, and Ferrari got everything right. I really think there isn't much else to discuss here.

I do however, wonder if they slow lap behind the safety car helps extend the live of Vettels tyres a little though for the first stint.

Well, given that the safety car came out very early, The heat in the tyres may not have went beyond critical tresholds. Once a tyre gets beyond that, it gets "cooked" and some chemical processes will take place that irreversably worsen tyre performance. It looks like that did not happen before the safety car, which in its own extended the life of the tyres.

But the Ferrari also was very kind on its tyres. It did not put as much heat into it as the Mercedes did. Mercedes on top of that put even more heat into the tyres by running behind others and having to put more pace into it to overtake. By the time Hamilton was in clean air, his hard tyres were as much deprived from performance as Vettel's softer tyres.

It's a knock-on effect Mercedes isn't that used to anymore. Driving in the pack deprives tyre performance, especially when the heat is exceptionally high already. Mercedes expected that everybody would pit, putting them again in clean air. Little bit foolish since the ones being on new tyres would always stay out.

[Phil]

And I'm not guessing here. Rosberg cleared the field, to reach 3rd, by lap 14, and was 9s behind Hamilton and 18s behind Vettel, then. Rosberg used the same combination of the other two, after the second pit stop, but in reverse(Hards, then Mediums). Nico finished 4s behind Hamilton and 12 behind Vettel, so a better pace once on clean air.

PS: When he and Hamilton had the same compound on the same stint, from lap 14 to 24, and both were on clean air, Rosberg reduced his gap from 9s to 7,2s, despite using more his tires to pass faster cars like Massa and Ricciardo

While I do agree more or less with the above points that Rosberg might have had a slight pace advantage over Hamilton, I just wanted to clear up that Rosberg was able to pass those quicker cars quite easily. When Hamilton was passing the very same cars (the ones Rosberg had to pass after Massa and Ricciardo), their tyres were clearly going off and they made a few mistakes which Rosberg could use to get by easily. Hamilton wasted quite a bit more time on them while they had a stronger pace.

Also, one can't say that Hamiltons O-P 3rd and 4th stint equals out with Rosbergs P-O stint. They are different tyres, different compound and you are comparing one car with more fuel on option tyres vs the same car on prime, and later a lighter car on prime tyre vs. option tyres. That will never yield an identical picture. The biggest weakness was tyre degredation for both cars, so theoretically, being on the harder compound first and later on the option tyre would be using the tyres more efficiently (what Rosberg did). One could also say Lewis wasted his option tyre when the car was heavier.

Anyhow - Rosberg and Hamilton were pretty equal for long durations of the race when both were on similar stints. Yes, Rosberg closed the gap here and then, but I think they both know they were driving different races. Lewis's mindset was to win the race, I think Rosberg knew he wasn't in any chance of it after that first pitstop when he got held up in the pit-lane and then later in more traffic. His best chance was always P2, as the team told him on the radio at some point (mentioning that he was racing Vettel).

[dans79]

i think thats nonsense and even if they did, that would be their choice and should not be used as an excuse as to why they were beaten.

It's not an excuse, it's as tactical error, one that contributed to them not winning the race.

[Wayne DR]

i think thats nonsense and even if they did, that would be their choice and should not be used as an excuse as to why they were beaten.

It's not an excuse, it's as tactical error, one that contributed to them not winning the race.

I think they simply became complacent, as they have always had a dominant car. (This was evident when Hamilton's Race Engineer was asking for impossible lap times. We have now SEEN the best the Merc can deliver.)

They were caught napping by Ferrari, and Ferrari won't be able to do that twice. Paddy and Wolff will be ensuring EVERYONE is back on their best game next race. Having said that, Allison says Ferrari will have upgrades for China. How good is the Ferrari?

For the first time in a long time, I am actually excited about the Championship! Bring on China!!!

[Wayne DR]

Also, one can't say that Hamiltons O-P 3rd and 4th stint equals out with Rosbergs P-O stint. They are different tyres, different compound and you are comparing one car with more fuel on option tyres vs the same car on prime, and later a lighter car on prime tyre vs. option tyres. That will never yield an identical picture. The biggest weakness was tyre degredation for both cars, so theoretically, being on the harder compound first and later on the option tyre would be using the tyres more efficiently (what Rosberg did). One could also say Lewis wasted his option tyre when the car was heavier.

Anyhow - Rosberg and Hamilton were pretty equal for long durations of the race when both were on similar stints. Yes, Rosberg closed the gap here and then, but I think they both know they were driving different races. Lewis's mindset was to win the race, I think Rosberg knew he wasn't in any chance of it after that first pitstop when he got held up in the pit-lane and then later in more traffic. His best chance was always P2, as the team told him on the radio at some point (mentioning that he was racing Vettel).

Looking Rosberg's first stint on the Prime - 22 laps averaging 1' 47.097" and last stint on the Options - 16 laps averaging 1' 43.266" (both of these exclude Safety Car and out/in laps), he could have possibly 2 stopped with his gentler driving style.

The Safety Car would have helped him nurse the used Options to lap 17 (same lap as Vettel pitted), then 22 laps on the Prime get him to lap 39, leaving 17 laps on the new Options to get home (one more lap). Yes, the heavier fuel load may have impacted tyre life, but I think it was doable. It may not have been enough to win, but he would have beaten Hamilton. Not sure what is going on with Rosberg this year, he seems beaten already and his team certainly don't appear to be helping... (Debrief question No. 1: "Why the hell was I double stacked behind Lewis, compromising MY race?")

COME ON NICO, GET YOUR HEAD IN THE GAME, YOU ARE BETTER THAN THAT! GAME ON!!!

[giantfan10]

Also, one can't say that Hamiltons O-P 3rd and 4th stint equals out with Rosbergs P-O stint. They are different tyres, different compound and you are comparing one car with more fuel on option tyres vs the same car on prime, and later a lighter car on prime tyre vs. option tyres. That will never yield an identical picture. The biggest weakness was tyre degredation for both cars, so theoretically, being on the harder compound first and later on the option tyre would be using the tyres more efficiently (what Rosberg did). One could also say Lewis wasted his option tyre when the car was heavier.

Anyhow - Rosberg and Hamilton were pretty equal for long durations of the race when both were on similar stints. Yes, Rosberg closed the gap here and then, but I think they both know they were driving different races. Lewis's mindset was to win the race, I think Rosberg knew he wasn't in any chance of it after that first pitstop when he got held up in the pit-lane and then later in more traffic. His best chance was always P2, as the team told him on the radio at some point (mentioning that he was racing Vettel).

Looking Rosberg's first stint on the Prime - 22 laps averaging 1' 47.097" and last stint on the Options - 16 laps averaging 1' 43.266" (both of these exclude Safety Car and out/in laps), he could have possibly 2 stopped with his gentler driving style.

The Safety Car would have helped him nurse the used Options to lap 17 (same lap as Vettel pitted), then 22 laps on the Prime get him to lap 39, leaving 17 laps on the new Options to get home (one more lap). Yes, the heavier fuel load may have impacted tyre life, but I think it was doable. It may not have been enough to win, but he would have beaten Hamilton. Not sure what is going on with Rosberg this year, he seems beaten already and his team certainly don't appear to be helping... (Debrief question No. 1: "Why the hell was I double stacked behind Lewis, compromising MY race?")

COME ON NICO, GET YOUR HEAD IN THE GAME, YOU ARE BETTER THAN THAT! GAME ON!!!

listening to nicos radio during the rae is painful at some points..... he seems clueless ...

[dans79]

This was a situation where Merc screwed up, and Ferrari got everything right. I really think there isn't much else to discuss here.

I do however, wonder if they slow lap behind the safety car helps extend the live of Vettels tyres a little though for the first stint.

I'm sure it did, plus he gained a significant amount of time on Lewis & Nico, while they had to fight through traffic. Honestly I don't know what Merc was thinking.

[Phil]

Not sure what is going on with Rosberg this year, he seems beaten already and his team certainly don't appear to be helping... (Debrief question No. 1: "Why the hell was I double stacked behind Lewis, compromising MY race?")

Yes. As a team, they certainly failed. To live one of the cars out and pit one under the safety car would seem like a nobrainer. If they felt the pitstop under the safety car was the prefered strategy, pit Lewis, leave Rosberg out. Although to be fair; Since both drivers are likely to be fighting for the championship (and will probably be the only contenders, realistically), it would seem unfair if the secondary driver (the one who is on the non-ideal strategy) ends up pulling the lottery and ends up ahead of the one who should be on the prefered strategy. It's a tricky situation. At least if you have them both on equal strategies, they have to fight it out on track.

I actually think pitting under the safety car was a mistake, but I guess the data showed Mercedes that their tyre deg on the option tyre was too much, so they figured a free pitstop and lose a bit of time in traffic (~11 seconds) to be a good trade-off. It likely would have been, if Ferrari hadn't had THAT kind of pace on the option tyre and tyre deg...

[Phil]

I've attempted to put the Malaysian GP into a chart James Allen style:



Should be reasonably accurate (lap times are taken from the FIA site).

(Nevermind; I just saw that Sector posted a better one from the formula1 site on page 1. )

[Jordan44]

Also, one can't say that Hamiltons O-P 3rd and 4th stint equals out with Rosbergs P-O stint. They are different tyres, different compound and you are comparing one car with more fuel on option tyres vs the same car on prime, and later a lighter car on prime tyre vs. option tyres. That will never yield an identical picture. The biggest weakness was tyre degredation for both cars, so theoretically, being on the harder compound first and later on the option tyre would be using the tyres more efficiently (what Rosberg did). One could also say Lewis wasted his option tyre when the car was heavier.

Anyhow - Rosberg and Hamilton were pretty equal for long durations of the race when both were on similar stints. Yes, Rosberg closed the gap here and then, but I think they both know they were driving different races. Lewis's mindset was to win the race, I think Rosberg knew he wasn't in any chance of it after that first pitstop when he got held up in the pit-lane and then later in more traffic. His best chance was always P2, as the team told him on the radio at some point (mentioning that he was racing Vettel).

Looking Rosberg's first stint on the Prime - 22 laps averaging 1' 47.097" and last stint on the Options - 16 laps averaging 1' 43.266" (both of these exclude Safety Car and out/in laps), he could have possibly 2 stopped with his gentler driving style.

The Safety Car would have helped him nurse the used Options to lap 17 (same lap as Vettel pitted), then 22 laps on the Prime get him to lap 39, leaving 17 laps on the new Options to get home (one more lap). Yes, the heavier fuel load may have impacted tyre life, but I think it was doable. It may not have been enough to win, but he would have beaten Hamilton. Not sure what is going on with Rosberg this year, he seems beaten already and his team certainly don't appear to be helping... (Debrief question No. 1: "Why the hell was I double stacked behind Lewis, compromising MY race?")

COME ON NICO, GET YOUR HEAD IN THE GAME, YOU ARE BETTER THAN THAT! GAME ON!!!

listening to nicos radio during the rae is painful at some points..... he seems clueless ...

If Ferrari remain competitive and Nico doesn't start getting his act together soon they will have no choice but to appoint him as rear gunner against Hamilton, coupled with the Williams (if they can help them to be more competitive).

Going into the 2014 season... Nico is the smart guy who can outsmart everyone on strategy, fuel saving, blah blah blah. I'm not sure where the media got that from.