Is the V6 formula a disaster for F1?

[ESPImperium]

The only thing id like to see, electronically in software speak is get everyone in a standardised source code. Give the customers the same code as their factory counterparts and thus enabling them to maximise their ERS and Brake By Wire capabilities as well. I have heard some engineers say this will bring back the top teams by a a few tenths in lap time, but the mid pack will be able to gain about second in time quite easily through software integration.

Personally, id allow the manufacturers the whole of 2016 to develop with no restriction. But 2017 would be restricted even further, more or less homologated from the beginning, allowing each manufacturer no more than 10 tokens per season for every season after that. However, for every season, the cost for each customer shall not exceed €15m for the power unit and the customers have to be able to get access to upgrades at the same time after their works counterparts.

The V6s are not a disaster, they just have not been thought out correctly from a technical stand point, but a sporting stand point. Personally, i would have a 'Engine Title' where the points accrued from the top 3 cars from one engine manufacturer will give them something extra, not sure what yet. However, it means they have to look after their customers as well as the works side. Penalties could be where the 'engine title' has 5 points deducted per component used over the 4 or 5 per season.

[Shooty81]

Personally, id allow the manufacturers the whole of 2016 to develop with no restriction. But 2017 would be restricted even further, more or less homologated from the beginning, allowing each manufacturer no more than 10 tokens per season for every season after that.

Why do you suggest opening the Homologation, just to enforce them later?
This whole homologation nonsense brought us into todays position.
Homologation means that every effert has to be brought in advance. While this is not a problem per se, trouble starts, if one has worked better than the other, and this advantage ist frozen.

Why do you think this will be better with the next freeze?

[Kiril Varbanov]

V6 is not a disaster recipe per se, neither is the ERS; it's the opposite. The way it has been executed was rather poor (with all the limitations), however. The noise is still a problem for me. I just don't get the same sensation today.

[MrNoo]

I think the V6 formula per say is not that bad, it's a shame the rules have taken us all here. I guess we will have to get used to the concept that we will never hear a Matra V12 at full chat or a Ferrari V12 or even a V10. The racing currently is just plain poor, sure Merc have done a good job, it's just a shame that the modern engines seem so complicated that they cannot get a more competitive grid with more manufacturers but then why would they enter after seeing how tough Honda/Renault have found it this year??
I have watched F1 for more years than I care to remember, this year I have watched 5 races in total, keep abreast of tech goings on on this forum but I honestly struggle to stay awake, every race I have fallen asleep. (or maybe just getting old!)
Apart from the tech (that interests me) the racing is just plain boring. ERS etc etc seems to me an expensive gimmick. Drivers should in my view race flat out from green lights to flag, no coasting, give them decent rubber and let them race, sod the fuel limits, just get them racing, we are loosing the spectacle that was F1.
And as for 10 sec holds for engine allocation infringements etc it is just comical.
I am ashamed to say it but I derive more enjoyment from watching MotoGP, more overtaking in one race than a whole season of F1. People like to watch "Ballsy cars driven on or over the limit by ballsy drivers" so why the hell can they not put a set of stable rules down that enables us to have this??
Rant over, it's just very frustrating that what once was so good is just so poor. Hell, you get more of a spectacle watching a grid of Mini Se7ens thrashing round Thruxton.

[PlatinumZealot]

I agree that the formula 1 is not bad. It is actually great. The problem is the limits on fuel flow, development and testing.

[Pingguest]

Having a fuel-flow limit makes sense, as it cetrus paribus limits engine power. However, from an efficiency point of view it would have been better to have a fuel-flow limit independent of engine speed.

[Piraxian]

I totally agree with this concept. The FIA should just give them all a standard 100kg fuel tank at the start of the season. This tank can only be filled once in Quali (that should make things a bit hairy in Q3 when they're running low on fuel) and once again for the race. Each year it's reduced in size by 5kg till it's only 50kg. Any fuel can be used as long as it's not dangerous, diesel, petrol, minced leprechauns, whatever.

After the tank has shrunk in size the next phase could involve a sophisticated emissions sensor which over the next 10 years has to eventually go down to zero emissions.

The key is to let them spend what they want on the engines as long as they drive the rear wheels, maybe they'll actually come up with some useful tech which is relevent to road cars. Like a wankel engine which runs on bread, or a turbine engine which produces no emissions and runs on hope and dreams, or some other such green tree hugging nonsense

I´d love to see FIA make a rule saying you can build whatever engine you want but you only get 100kg´s of fuel for the race to power it.

Skip the ERS stuff until F1 moves to full electric machines in 15-20 years.

So you're free to do what ever you want except you can't have a hybrid system?

Actually skip the mandatory hybrids.

I am fairly sure that the fastest way around the track with such a fuel limitation will pretty much demand that energy is harvested, perhaps not in such a carefully regulated fashion as the moment, but that is half the fun.

Reduce the fuel limit by say 5kg/year over the next ten years and the suddenly they are twice as efficient, but I would bet no slower than they are today.

[CHT]

I think the V6 formula per say is not that bad, it's a shame the rules have taken us all here. I guess we will have to get used to the concept that we will never hear a Matra V12 at full chat or a Ferrari V12 or even a V10. The racing currently is just plain poor, sure Merc have done a good job, it's just a shame that the modern engines seem so complicated that they cannot get a more competitive grid with more manufacturers but then why would they enter after seeing how tough Honda/Renault have found it this year??
I have watched F1 for more years than I care to remember, this year I have watched 5 races in total, keep abreast of tech goings on on this forum but I honestly struggle to stay awake, every race I have fallen asleep. (or maybe just getting old!)
Apart from the tech (that interests me) the racing is just plain boring. ERS etc etc seems to me an expensive gimmick. Drivers should in my view race flat out from green lights to flag, no coasting, give them decent rubber and let them race, sod the fuel limits, just get them racing, we are loosing the spectacle that was F1.
And as for 10 sec holds for engine allocation infringements etc it is just comical.
I am ashamed to say it but I derive more enjoyment from watching MotoGP, more overtaking in one race than a whole season of F1. People like to watch "Ballsy cars driven on or over the limit by ballsy drivers" so why the hell can they not put a set of stable rules down that enables us to have this??
Rant over, it's just very frustrating that what once was so good is just so poor. Hell, you get more of a spectacle watching a grid of Mini Se7ens thrashing round Thruxton.

Share the same sentiment about the state of F1 as I believe no amount of sugar coating is going to bring back the sensation you get from V8 and V10. And the feeling will be worst for drivers who have grew up from the V8 and V10 era.

[sgth0mas]

To say the V6 formula isnt the problem...but the rules are is the same as saying "its not a square, its a rectangle with 4 equal sides". They are the same thing. The formula is describing the set of rules. The V6 formula is by definition the set of rules that dictate the current engines...

In saying that i do think V6s can be fun if you change the formula. Or if you allow in season testing so these engine issues can be resolved. I cant imagine designing the most complex race engine in the world without the ability to test real world.

[bhall II]

I cant imagine designing the most complex race engine in the world without the ability to test real world.

That's because it requires a level of arrogance and incompetence that's relatively rare outside "the Circus." Only in F1 world is it prudent to adopt uber-expensive, vastly complicated power plants that are experimental by nature and then restrict the cheapest aspects of their development (testing and number of examples) on cost grounds.

I'm reminded of James Allison's response to Christian Horner's suggestion that wind tunnels be banned:

"That would be an extremely foolish direction for the sport to take," [Allison] said. "The reason I say that is that we all are fortunate to receive money from our backers, who back us in the hope that we will then put a car on the grid that will do them proud. As engineers, our job is to make sure we spend their money wisely and that when we spend their money we deliver lap time off the back of it."

Replace "backers" with "fans," and you'll see exactly why the V6 formula has created so much anger and frustration.

[FW17]

Picture the scene. You’re in a second-hand car sales showroom, and there are two salesmen. One, a small, old, strange-looking man with white hair is stood next to what appears to be a modern sports car. The other chap is stood next to an older sports car, but obviously a classic, a high-end model.

You’ve read up on the two models. Many of the employees of the modern sports car company have said how bad the car is. It’s too slow, too quiet, it’s unreliable, and it’s almost’too easy to drive’.

However, it’s also supposed to feature cutting-edge technology, which is a field that’s long held your interest, so you query the strange old man.

“You wouldn’t understand, it’s too complicated,” he retorts.

Slightly insulted, you change the subject to the the price of the cars.

The strange guy, “They were originally going to be the same price, but after recent review I am only interested in selling it to people with lots of money. I see you have no Rolex, so I am not interested in helping you any more.”

“You’re lucky even to be able to see it today – half of the time you can only see pictures of the car’s best features that were taken earlier in the day… Unless you pay a premium,” he adds.

Consequently, you do not want this gentleman’s ‘help’ any more, and you strongly desire the classic car – you know back in the day it gave pleasure to many, and none of the new design’s finest features and excellent performance have been mentioned by the incompetent salesman, and the bickering from the staff is also driving you away.

Unfortunately the other guy says the only thing that could stop you, “This one is no longer legally available.”

You dejectedly walk away with nothing, in the hope that perhaps another showroom has what you need.

So… Let’s talk about what is wrong with Formula One…

--GP247

[bhall II]

"Hey, customer team."

"Yes, automaker?"

"You have to give me $25-30 million and adopt a 'power unit' no one wants so I can try to sell more cars."

"What's in it for me?"

"Not my problem."

"Well, what about the fans?"

[both erupt into laughter]

[CHT]

with so many car manufacturers pushing out full and hybrid electric cars and major cities setting up charging station, I am not even sure if there is any future for having MGU-H or MGU-K for road cars.

So perhaps F1 is now struggling to reinvent the wheel.

[FW17]

with so many car manufacturers pushing out full and hybrid electric cars and major cities setting up charging station, I am not even sure if there is any future for having MGU-H or MGU-K for road cars.

So perhaps F1 is now struggling to reinvent the wheel.

So you do not see a turbo MGU-H in a road car? Turbo engines have just been reintroduced into production road cars on basis of fuel efficiency rather than performance, this is still in the first generation. Next generation turbo petrol engines will have a MGU-H or at least a GU-H combined with VGT

[CHT]

with so many car manufacturers pushing out full and hybrid electric cars and major cities setting up charging station, I am not even sure if there is any future for having MGU-H or MGU-K for road cars.

So perhaps F1 is now struggling to reinvent the wheel.

So you do not see a turbo MGU-H in a road car? Turbo engines have just been reintroduced into production road cars on basis of fuel efficiency rather than performance, this is still in the first generation. Next generation turbo petrol engines will have a MGU-H or at least a GU-H combined with VGT

There is nothing new about turbo engine. Today, we have a combo of supercharge and turbo charge or turbo diesel which offer much better torque and CO2 emission than petrol engine and Audi have been running them on Le Mans for so many years.

The future?? I am pretty sure you are going to see more electric cars on the road because turbo engine are no longer cutting edge. For that reason, there are talks the even companies like google and apple are moving into automotive industry.