Mercedes proposes 20hp boost for trailing rivals

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danielk
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Re: Mercedes proposes 20hp boost for trailing rivals

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Interesting. But do you imagine the other engine manufacturers accepting that? An admission that they simply dont have the ability to catch up? Give Mercedes a massive PR boost "look we can beat them with one hand tied behind our back" The others i imagine it would damage reputation. Just open up development and let them go at it.

Nickel
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Re: Mercedes proposes 20hp boost for trailing rivals

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I disagree that it would change nothing for the race. There are very few races where the cars are actually forcibly marginal on fuel. Most races, they apparently do not fill the cars with the maximum 100kg. It therefore follows that relaxing the fuel flow restrictions can have an effect without relaxing the 100kg race limit. How much of an effect? I don't know.

ESPImperium
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Re: Mercedes proposes 20hp boost for trailing rivals

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Personally, the way i would like to see it done is, and i have tweaked my initial weekend format as this:

* Q1 - A 45 minute session with a Knockout element.
- After 17 minutes all drivers must be out and have set at least one banker time.
- At 15 minutes all cars must be out on track
- At 120 second intervals, the lowest driver will be knocked out.
- This will leave a top 8
- Tyre changes are allowed, but you can do so if you don't think you are on the bubble
* Q2 - A 10 minute single lap shoot out style session after a 5 minute break
- Each driver will have a set of their preferred tyres that will only be used in this session, and for that car to start the race on
- Each driver will be fuelled for 5 laps tops, unless there is a changeable climactic condition.
- Once the driver departs at a time of their choosing, once they come back in, they report to parc ferme with 1 kg of fuel in the tank for testing.

* Races will be classed as a 300km or a 400km race.
- This will mean a increase in Monaco by 14 laps, and many other tracks will see a single lap reduction
- The six 400km races will be more for endurance (those races that are under the 1 hour 30 mark will be made 400km races, like Spa, Monza and a couple others as too many last about 1 hour 30 these days)
- Drivers shall start the race with a at least 85kg of fuel in their tank
- If the driver has any of the 200kg of fuel they are limited to for Race & Quali
- Refuelling will be back, if a driver can with any remaining fuel from the limit come in for it after 50% of the race but not in the last 10 laps.
- Tyre and Fuel stops need to be completed separately to give the strategy guys a headache

* NO fuel flow meter, however cars must make it to parc ferme at the end of the race with a minimum of 1kg in the tank of the car to be extracted for testing.

F1 in my opinion should be about endurance and speed, a driver should be tested on both though the season. If the cars get 3 seconds faster on aero for 2017, and if cars become 1 second a lap faster year on year, races like Spa and Monza will soon last less than 1 hour and 20 minutes. And i as a fan would be unhappy with a race that would be ran quicker than most nights out to see a band or an artist as most give you 1 hour 30 plus, or in the case of Bruce Springsteen, 3 hours or more sometimes, even Movies are generally a hour and forty or more, or a Leo Di Caprio 3 hours or more. F1 needs to make some races longer now. F1 needs to engage more on a entertainment level as people will switch off or turn away from tracks when they don't get value for money.

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strad
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Re: MERCEDES PROPOSES 20HP BOOST FOR TRAILING RIVALS

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[quote="bhall II
It's always been a circus. Now it's becoming a freak show.
As is so often the case I agree with your thoughts in this thread. However I must take exception to the It's always been a circus statement.
It only became a circus after Bernie and outside money took over that it became a circus and ever so slowly into a joke. As well as a freak show.
Tell me does anybody, I mean anybody care whether stars and glitterazy attend or is in the pits?
Personally I couldn't care less.
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

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turbof1
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Re: MERCEDES PROPOSES 20HP BOOST FOR TRAILING RIVALS

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strad wrote:[quote="bhall II
It's always been a circus. Now it's becoming a freak show.
As is so often the case I agree with your thoughts in this thread. However I must take exception to the It's always been a circus statement.
It only became a circus after Bernie and outside money took over that it became a circus and ever so slowly into a joke. As well as a freak show.
Tell me does anybody, I mean anybody care whether stars and glitterazy attend or is in the pits?
Personally I couldn't care less.
No Bhall is right: it has always been a circus. The past had similar cases of just craziness. Like water tanks they emptied inmediately during racing to get around the minimum weight. Traction control software when it was forbidden. Running 2 rear wings in comic and half *rsed fashion.
#AeroFrodo

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strad
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Re: Mercedes proposes 20hp boost for trailing rivals

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Turbo, I believe that is post Bernie and post ads :wink:
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

bhall II
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Re: MERCEDES PROPOSES 20HP BOOST FOR TRAILING RIVALS

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strad wrote:As is so often the case I agree with your thoughts in this thread. However I must take exception to the It's always been a circus statement.
It only became a circus after Bernie and outside money took over that it became a circus and ever so slowly into a joke. As well as a freak show.
Tell me does anybody, I mean anybody care whether stars and glitterazy attend or is in the pits?
Personally I couldn't care less.
Well, there goes your credibility. :lol:

The circus aspect of the sport was the fun. It was the grand juxtaposition of racers attempting feats that hadn't been done before, some big, some small - some underhanded - in cars with levels of performance that no one had ever seen before, all for the sake of racing, all without a net, and we got to bear witness to it up close and personal. While it's never been perfect and has had more than its fair share of peculiar characters, there was a time when it aspired to be little more than an idealistic playground for ambitious overgrown children.

The freak show is the current disparate group of faceless entities, from holding companies to automakers, all trying to pull the sport in the direction that's most beneficial to their own bottom line and with no regard for the consequences. This has been going on for so long now that everyone seems to have simply grown accustomed to things being --- up all the time, and they've reoriented their thought processes accordingly. It's why nothing about it withstands even cursory scrutiny from the outside. There are cracks everywhere.
The Atlantic, Jan/Feb 2016 wrote:The sociologist Diane Vaughan coined the phrase the normalization of deviance to describe a cultural drift in which circumstances classified as “not okay” are slowly reclassified as “okay.” In the case of the Challenger space-shuttle disaster—the subject of a landmark study by Vaughan—damage to the crucial O‑rings had been observed after previous shuttle launches. Each observed instance of damage, she found, was followed by a sequence “in which the technical deviation of the [O‑rings] from performance predictions was redefined as an acceptable risk.” Repeated over time, this behavior became routinized into what organizational psychologists call a “script.” Engineers and managers “developed a definition of the situation that allowed them to carry on as if nothing was wrong.” To clarify: They were not merely acting as if nothing was wrong. They believed it, bringing to mind Orwell’s concept of doublethink, the method by which a bureaucracy conceals evil not only from the public but from itself.

mcdenife
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Re: Mercedes proposes 20hp boost for trailing rivals

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Brilliant post Bhall ll (and strad)
Long experience has taught me this about the status of mankind with regards to matters requiring thought. The less people know and understand about them, the more positively they attempt to argue concerning them; while on the other hand, to know and understand a multitude of things renders men cautious in passing judgement upon anything new. - Galileo..

The noblest of dogs is the hot dog. It feeds the hand that bites it.

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turbof1
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Re: Mercedes proposes 20hp boost for trailing rivals

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strad wrote:Turbo, I believe that is post Bernie and post ads :wink:
I have to be reminded sometimes it is that long he is around in the sport :lol: .
#AeroFrodo

SamH123
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Joined: 12 May 2012, 12:18

Re: Mercedes proposes 20hp boost for trailing rivals

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This story can't be real
Giving Honda 20hp is a very different scenario to giving Ferrari 20hp

Unless Mercedes have some amazing speed to unleash in Australia it seems impossible they would be considering "boosting" Ferrari

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
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Joined: 17 Feb 2012, 16:55

Re: MERCEDES PROPOSES 20HP BOOST FOR TRAILING RIVALS

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bhall II wrote: .... It was the grand juxtaposition of racers attempting feats that hadn't been done before, some big, some small - some underhanded - in cars with levels of performance that no one had ever seen before, all for the sake of racing, ...... there was a time when it aspired to be little more than an idealistic playground for ambitious overgrown children.
The freak show is the current disparate group of faceless entities, from holding companies to automakers, all trying to pull the sport in the direction that's most beneficial to their own bottom line and with no regard for the consequences. This has been going on for so long now that everyone seems to have simply grown accustomed to things being --- up all the time, and they've reoriented their thought processes accordingly. It's why nothing about it withstands even cursory scrutiny from the outside. There are cracks everywhere.
The Atlantic, Jan/Feb 2016 wrote:The sociologist Diane Vaughan coined the phrase the normalization of deviance to describe a cultural drift in which circumstances classified as “not okay” are slowly reclassified as “okay.” In the case of the Challenger space-shuttle disaster—the subject of a landmark study by Vaughan—damage to the crucial O‑rings had been observed after previous shuttle launches. Each observed instance of damage, she found, was followed by a sequence “in which the technical deviation of the [O‑rings] from performance predictions was redefined as an acceptable risk.” Repeated over time, this behavior became routinized into what organizational psychologists call a “script.” Engineers and managers “developed a definition of the situation that allowed them to carry on as if nothing was wrong.” To clarify: They were not merely acting as if nothing was wrong. They believed it, bringing to mind Orwell’s concept of doublethink, the method by which a bureaucracy conceals evil not only from the public but from itself.
what would sociologist Diane Vaughan do with any version of F1 except close it down ?
(and explain that it was anyway inevitably doomed by changes in behaviour/fashion as were Elvis 78s)
the DVs of this world have no answers to anything material, that's why they chose sociology or whatever

before I read the above quote I favoured sending to the electric chair some of those who 'managed' the Challenger shuttle flight
(similarly so wrt eg Titanic, Air France 447, and many others)
without the weekend overtime ban at the Cape there wouldn't have been any cold weather exposure to the O rings
the Columbia problems were caused by do-gooder rulings, as was (arguably) Chernobyl
in aviation, official investigations conveniently underplay faults in the totality of ground processes and overplay the part of flight processes

legal, commercial/contractual and political foundations make every manager a full-time or part-time Judas
risk assessments are just guesses, and they remain so regardless of the word-miners like this Vaughan person
nothing is new here
and thinking management is a skill that can exist independent of industry-specific skills is deluded

bhall II
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Re: MERCEDES PROPOSES 20HP BOOST FOR TRAILING RIVALS

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Tommy Cookers wrote:what would sociologist Diane Vaughan do with any version of F1 except close it down ?
(and explain that it was anyway inevitably doomed by changes in behaviour/fashion as were Elvis 78s)
the DVs of this world have no answers to anything material, that's why they chose sociology or whatever
Well, not all of us were blessed with the ability to plod through life unencumbered by a regard for gray areas. Thank Newton we have infallible Engineers to do it for us!

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm gonna go read a few excerpts and make some sweeping generalizations about the texts from which they were pulled.

:D