F1 Bloopers and Head-scratchers: Rules Edition

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
Gaz.
Gaz.
4
Joined: 24 Jul 2010, 09:53

Re: F1 Bloopers and Head-scratchers: Rules Edition

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Where to start...

Pirelli tyres in general.
2014 noses
2014 double points
2012 noses
2012 Pirelli lottery
Race tyres for qualifying
Race fuel for qualifying
2005 USA GP

To be honest I have a short memory despite watching since 1986. Dropping points before 1991 (?) was blinking stupid and well said that man who mentioned Senna in Suzuka with a rule the FIA had to look up just for an excuse to get the result Balestre wanted.
Forza Jules

bhall II
bhall II
473
Joined: 19 Jun 2014, 20:15

Re: F1 Bloopers and Head-scratchers: Rules Edition

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FoxHound wrote:Ben is too mad on these engine regs! :lol:
Sometimes subtlety is overrated.

From the ham-fisted manner in which everything was conceived and implemented, to the illogical compromises made to "cut costs," to the utter dearth of visceral appeal in the result, there's not a whole lot to like about the engine formula. It's not just me. Half the teams and a plurality of fans don't like it, either. Plus, both Ecclestone and Todt have pushed for alternatives.

Regardless of what one thinks of the technology, I don't see how anyone can say it's been successful.

zac510
zac510
22
Joined: 24 Jan 2006, 12:58

Re: F1 Bloopers and Head-scratchers: Rules Edition

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Can people be a bit more specific about which part of the rules were bloopers? A lot of these rules had good intentions but weren't executed properly in practice, by either the teams, tyre supplier or the rule was written poorly.
For example the recent rip-off visor rule; it has the best intentions (to keep more cars in the race, which every spectator should be in favour of) but has been let down by inaction on the teams' part. That's not the rule's fault.

At the moment it's just looking like a list of rules people don't like, which I don't think was the intention of Steven's original post.
No good turn goes unpunished.

bhall II
bhall II
473
Joined: 19 Jun 2014, 20:15

Re: F1 Bloopers and Head-scratchers: Rules Edition

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Specificity...

As originally envisioned and executed in 2014, power unit homologation effectively guaranteed dominance by one team, because the probability of all manufacturers producing hardware of similar quality was virtually nil, and there was no way for rivals to bridge the gap in-season.

The "token" system and the limit on the number of PU components available to each driver throughout the year are redundant. They're also illogical, because they have zero effect on development, which is exponentially more costly than production and goes on behind closed doors 24/7. (Drivers will likely be restricted to two PUs by 2019, because it seems no one learned a damn thing from absurd scenarios like the time McLaren drivers took a combined 105-place grid penalty.)

The 100kg cap on fuel consumption during a race set the stage for "lift and coast" strategies that are as entertaining as watching flies fück.

Power units actually sound like flies fücking. (The Fédération Incompetent de l'Automobile is now working on an "engine sound generator," as if the current state of the sport isn't embarrassing enough.)

As a whole, the current formula has produced a few grand prix weekends in which the quickest GP2 cars outpaced the slowest F1 cars. (13 GP2 cars were quicker than both Marussia and Caterham at Barcelona in 2014., and all of them were within 107% of a pole time set by Lewis Hamilton in the most dominant car in F1 history.)

The personalities in F1 are just too arrogant to realize that not all problems have solutions, and sometimes it makes a lot more sense to simply walk away.

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FoxHound
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Joined: 23 Aug 2012, 16:50

Re: F1 Bloopers and Head-scratchers: Rules Edition

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bhall II wrote:
FoxHound wrote:Ben is too mad on these engine regs! :lol:
Sometimes subtlety is overrated.

From the ham-fisted manner in which everything was conceived and implemented, to the illogical compromises made to "cut costs," to the utter dearth of visceral appeal in the result, there's not a whole lot to like about the engine formula. It's not just me. Half the teams and a plurality of fans don't like it, either. Plus, both Ecclestone and Todt have pushed for alternatives.

Regardless of what one thinks of the technology, I don't see how anyone can say it's been successful.
Change scares people.

But why did the fans not like the engines? They actually do like the engines, and the tech that accompanies them, just that they are not loud enough.
Bernie and Todt not liking it revolves around business. They say the engines are driving the fans away, yet gate receipts at venues remain on 2013 levels.
Conveniently Bernie will not discuss the fact that the majority of the fans that have switched off, refuse to pay excessively to watch the sport on cable/satellite/digital.

The engine regs are certainly not perfect, and are currently expensive. But this is due to change dramatically with the engine prices halving in the next 18 months.

The main theme of fail in F1 revolves around Bernie, IMO. Too many mistakes, far too much power, and absolutely no connection with the fans. This will inevitably breed headscratching....
JET set

Jolle
Jolle
132
Joined: 29 Jan 2014, 22:58
Location: Dordrecht

Re: F1 Bloopers and Head-scratchers: Rules Edition

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FoxHound wrote:
bhall II wrote:
FoxHound wrote:Ben is too mad on these engine regs! :lol:
Sometimes subtlety is overrated.

From the ham-fisted manner in which everything was conceived and implemented, to the illogical compromises made to "cut costs," to the utter dearth of visceral appeal in the result, there's not a whole lot to like about the engine formula. It's not just me. Half the teams and a plurality of fans don't like it, either. Plus, both Ecclestone and Todt have pushed for alternatives.

Regardless of what one thinks of the technology, I don't see how anyone can say it's been successful.
Change scares people.

But why did the fans not like the engines? They actually do like the engines, and the tech that accompanies them, just that they are not loud enough.
Bernie and Todt not liking it revolves around business. They say the engines are driving the fans away, yet gate receipts at venues remain on 2013 levels.
Conveniently Bernie will not discuss the fact that the majority of the fans that have switched off, refuse to pay excessively to watch the sport on cable/satellite/digital.

The engine regs are certainly not perfect, and are currently expensive. But this is due to change dramatically with the engine prices halving in the next 18 months.

The main theme of fail in F1 revolves around Bernie, IMO. Too many mistakes, far too much power, and absolutely no connection with the fans. This will inevitably breed headscratching....
On the engines: if you look at all of the modern performance cars, the past few years they switched from big V8 normally aspirated to turbo engines with 3-4l engines (AMG, BMW, Ferrari, McLaren). F1 missed this, instead they choose to freeze the V8 2.4. If they had introduced, for instance, a V6 twin turbo after the V10, we wouldn't have this discussion now plus it would be quite possible that companies like BMW would still be in F1.
F1 should stay ahead of the curve, especially on tech. The next generation C63, M3, MC12, 488, 911 will have a hybrid engine with a MGU-etc.

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Big Mangalhit
27
Joined: 03 Dec 2015, 15:39

Re: F1 Bloopers and Head-scratchers: Rules Edition

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Quick prediction- I think we will have a blooper next year when engines will have trouble making the race with 100 or even 105kg with the massive increase in drag and weight of 2017 rules.

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ME4ME
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Joined: 19 Dec 2014, 16:37

Re: F1 Bloopers and Head-scratchers: Rules Edition

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Jolle wrote:The next generation C63, M3, MC12, 488, 911 will have a hybrid engine with a MGU-etc.
What do you base that assumption on? I very much doubt it. There might be some supercars getting an MGU-H, but the majority.. probably not.

F1 is forced to use MGU-H by regulation. They can make it work since the engine is putting out in the range of 700+bhp. Self sustained electrical energy is what, 80-90 kW from the MGU-H? I highly doubt it will be worth it for the cars you mention, given the additional weight, complexity, unreliability and significant economical cost it brings.

Jolle
Jolle
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Joined: 29 Jan 2014, 22:58
Location: Dordrecht

Re: F1 Bloopers and Head-scratchers: Rules Edition

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ME4ME wrote:
Jolle wrote:The next generation C63, M3, MC12, 488, 911 will have a hybrid engine with a MGU-etc.
What do you base that assumption on? I very much doubt it. There might be some supercars getting an MGU-H, but the majority.. probably not.

F1 is forced to use MGU-H by regulation. They can make it work since the engine is putting out in the range of 700+bhp. Self sustained electrical energy is what, 80-90 kW from the MGU-H? I highly doubt it will be worth it for the cars you mention, given the additional weight, complexity, unreliability and significant economical cost it brings.
Because it's the next big step in performance and efficiency. The current super cars are beaten off the line by an electric luxury saloon car.
Plus the exotic super cars (P1, LaFerrari and the 918) are already flirting with this kind of tech.

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FoxHound
55
Joined: 23 Aug 2012, 16:50

Re: F1 Bloopers and Head-scratchers: Rules Edition

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Jolle wrote: On the engines: if you look at all of the modern performance cars, the past few years they switched from big V8 normally aspirated to turbo engines with 3-4l engines (AMG, BMW, Ferrari, McLaren). F1 missed this, instead they choose to freeze the V8 2.4. If they had introduced, for instance, a V6 twin turbo after the V10, we wouldn't have this discussion now plus it would be quite possible that companies like BMW would still be in F1.
F1 should stay ahead of the curve, especially on tech. The next generation C63, M3, MC12, 488, 911 will have a hybrid engine with a MGU-etc.
I agree that a more decisive action earlier would have been better for the formula. Forgetting relevance and the inevitable pages of discussion that will yield, it is without doubt that technology should be at the forefront of F1.
Freezing engines was a massive own goal that led to frozen in advantages and disadvantages.
Beyond that, it changed the formula to one where some teams felt the engine should not make a difference.
When F1 historically have always had teams win with the best engines....Williams Renault, McLaren Honda, McLaren Mercedes, Williams Honda, McLaren Tag, Brabham BMW, Williams Ford and so on and so forth.

Beyond even that, it seems nonsensical to implement restrictions on the amount of energy that can be recuperated.
A maximum of 4MJ per lap can be transferred from the ES to the MGU-K (and then in turn to the drivetrain).

A maximum of 2MJ per lap can be transferred from the MGU-K to the ES.

The message is contrived.

We want F1 to be green, but only to a maximum of 2MJ per lap.
JET set

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FoxHound
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Joined: 23 Aug 2012, 16:50

Re: F1 Bloopers and Head-scratchers: Rules Edition

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ME4ME wrote:
Jolle wrote:The next generation C63, M3, MC12, 488, 911 will have a hybrid engine with a MGU-etc.
What do you base that assumption on? I very much doubt it. There might be some supercars getting an MGU-H, but the majority.. probably not.

F1 is forced to use MGU-H by regulation. They can make it work since the engine is putting out in the range of 700+bhp. Self sustained electrical energy is what, 80-90 kW from the MGU-H? I highly doubt it will be worth it for the cars you mention, given the additional weight, complexity, unreliability and significant economical cost it brings.
Mercedes are studying this project....
Image

Which alleges that it will have and "f1 derived powertrain".
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-c ... d-supercar
JET set

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markc
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Joined: 08 Dec 2011, 01:30

Re: F1 Bloopers and Head-scratchers: Rules Edition

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Banning KERS from McLaren back in the V10 days.... that was an almighty blunder. Just imagine what, with unlimited spending, would have happened....
Partly why it was banned: the unlimited spending! I imagine that also there were safety concerns - what type of recovery: hydraulic / electric / kinetic. As we know now the marshals need to be trained in electric safety procedures under the current era (pun not intended).

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FoxHound
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Joined: 23 Aug 2012, 16:50

Re: F1 Bloopers and Head-scratchers: Rules Edition

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markc wrote:Banning KERS from McLaren back in the V10 days.... that was an almighty blunder. Just imagine what, with unlimited spending, would have happened....
Partly why it was banned: the unlimited spending! I imagine that also there were safety concerns - what type of recovery: hydraulic / electric / kinetic. As we know now the marshals need to be trained in electric safety procedures under the current era (pun not intended).

Everyone spends as much as they can afford anyway. It just means less will be spent on other expensive areas like....ummm.....aero. :D
JET set

Miguel
Miguel
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Joined: 17 Apr 2008, 11:36
Location: San Sebastian (Spain)

Re: F1 Bloopers and Head-scratchers: Rules Edition

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Obvious blunder is obvious: Engine freeze on season 1 race 01 -> token system on seasons 2 &3, all in the interest of saving money (what?). So the engine freeze locks a massive advantage for a manufacturer (foreseeable), and then you put the token system that, instead of saving money, causes manufacturers to test all reasonable variations that get them the most BHP/token. This is even more difficult to swallow when one considers that the FIA president was the principal of a red team of historic significance 10 years ago.

IMHO, season 1 should have been a free for all with 5 engines, season 2 should have frozen parts (say combustion chamber) with 4 engines and then we can talk about mostly frozen engines. I'd love to know how many test engines each manufacturer builds in order to test the best token combination.

Other hilarious bits are banning the mass damper for being "active aerodynamics" (but not J-dampers!), banning F-ducts and then implementing DRS on every single car. Also, can we have "useless wet weather tires" on this list? Somebody please send Pirelli a V10 F1 with dummy aero to test in Silverstone when the weather is British enough. May not be doable after the June referendum.

PS: I had a massive dislike for Schumacher but, on hindsight, his British GP win is a great display of clever rule interpretation.
I am not amazed by F1 cars in Monaco. I want to see them driving in the A8 highway: Variable radius corners, negative banking, and extreme narrowings that Tilke has never dreamed off. Oh, yes, and "beautiful" weather tops it all.

"Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future." Niels Bohr

wesley123
wesley123
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008, 17:55

Re: F1 Bloopers and Head-scratchers: Rules Edition

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Interesting how no one has named the '81 and '82 season yet.

http://www.talkingaboutf1.com/2010/12/l ... eason.html
"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender