MP4/4 at Marconi Museum in Tustin California

[Chase3009]

Hi all,

I just made an impromptu visit to the Marconi Museum. There is a car there claimed to be a Senna MP4/4. After doing some research I'm certain that this is not an actual MP4/4. For one thing it has the incorrect number. I've looked around the web and can't seem to locate any information as to where the car came from. It appears that there were only 6 built and of course their life after F1 is well documented. I was wondering if anyone here has any input as to what it is exactly.



There are several other nice cars there including a few F1 cars from the older eras. Its worth a trip if you are in the area. Only $5 to get in.

[bill shoe]

I drove past that place on a regular basis around 5-8 years ago, and when I finally went in I was blown away by the collection. Like many collectors, Mr. Marconi has donated his cars to a museum trust/nonprofit for a tax write off. Most of these museums are shams, just storage garages with no publicity about their existence and little or no public hours. The Marconi museum, to its credit, seems 100% legit in terms of a public profile and hours. It's actually well laid out with lots of info about the cars.

I remember an MP4/4 on the floor (again 5-8 years ago). Of course I looked at it very carefully and down to all the details it seemed like a legit car that was very clean but still showed signs of having run in anger in the real world. I'm skeptical that a real MP4/4 would be mounted on a wall. My best guess is he leased the legit car from McLaren or someone, and then when the lease ran out he bought a high-end replica.

There was also a legit Williams there at the time, a few years more recent than the one in your pictures. The sign next to it said "on loan from Williams F1 Heritage collection" which I assume is a euphemism for "leased from Williams F1 Heritage collection". Anyway it was a legit Williams F1 car.

If you've researched MP4/4 online and think the wall unit is not real then surely you're right. It's like someone claiming to have a Bugatti Royale but without any provenance. Any car that epic and rare will always have the documented provenance if it's the real deal. There will be no uncertainty.

[Gridlock]

"1988 Honda F1"

Hmm.

In any event, someone was asking about the red of the 4/4 in another thread, and you've captured it well. Much more orange than I thought.

Also, I forgot about the hilarious write-off tax code, so thanks for explaining why so many american collections are nominally museums! Wish I could offset a 250GTO every few years!

[Chase3009]

I remember an MP4/4 on the floor (again 5-8 years ago). Of course I looked at it very carefully and down to all the details it seemed like a legit car that was very clean but still showed signs of having run in anger in the real world. I'm skeptical that a real MP4/4 would be mounted on a wall. My best guess is he leased the legit car from McLaren or someone, and then when the lease ran out he bought a high-end replica.

Thats what got me to thinking about it. The car definitely looks to have spent some time on a track. Of course being mounted the wall it was tough to get a really close look at the whole thing.

I wasn't sure if there were any exact replicas built or if anyone has any info on them. I can't find any info online about replicas.

Speaking of the color. It really does look much more orange in person than it comes out in pictures. Just to check myself on that one I asked my brother who was with me at the time what color he thought it was. He answered that it was orange. Then I showed him the pictures I had taken of it and we both thinks it looks much more red in pictures.

Its a beautiful car any way you look at it. And the museum is very well laid out with plenty of good content.

[Eddie_Temple]

I remember an MP4/4 on the floor (again 5-8 years ago). Of course I looked at it very carefully and down to all the details it seemed like a legit car that was very clean but still showed signs of having run in anger in the real world. I'm skeptical that a real MP4/4 would be mounted on a wall. My best guess is he leased the legit car from McLaren or someone, and then when the lease ran out he bought a high-end replica.

Thats what got me to thinking about it. The car definitely looks to have spent some time on a track. Of course being mounted the wall it was tough to get a really close look at the whole thing.

I wasn't sure if there were any exact replicas built or if anyone has any info on them. I can't find any info online about replicas.

Speaking of the color. It really does look much more orange in person than it comes out in pictures. Just to check myself on that one I asked my brother who was with me at the time what color he thought it was. He answered that it was orange. Then I showed him the pictures I had taken of it and we both thinks it looks much more red in pictures.

Its a beautiful car any way you look at it. And the museum is very well laid out with plenty of good content.

I've seen many vintage Marlboro Mclarens and they're all neon in real life.

Neon never shows up in photos.

[rjsa]

The neon orange was engineered to saturate and look like the flip top box red under NTSC (that's short for 'never twice the same color').

[zeph]

Thanks for the heads-up! It's only a 35-minute drive for me, will definitely check this out

[bill shoe]

Thanks for the heads-up! It's only a 35-minute drive for me, will definitely check this out

When you go, look carefully at the MP4/4 and give your thoughts as to authenticity. Or better yet, see if you can ask someone who works there. Anyway, enjoy your visit.

[mclarenlm]

Sorry to bump an old thread, but I've read this thread a few times over the years hoping to see an update but figured I'd join and post now that I was able to get an update with some help earlier today.

The car on the Marconi wall is a show car, not an actual F1 car. Surprisingly, it's an MP4/3 show car (not a typo) based on the chassis plaque which is mounted on the driver seatback as all chassis plaques for their cars are at that time (I keep track of the MP4/4s by that and update their locations on wiki when I find new info). A fellow McLaren enthusiast, Peloton25, who follows the road car F1s like I do was kind enough to take a photo for me when he visited there recently. I won't post the photo as it's his but you can ask him on IG for it and I'm sure he will share. The plaque reads in big font "MP4/3" and below that the chassis # "MP4/3/SSC/2." The SSC meaning static show car. Honda has MP4/4/SSC/10 on display and you can see how that chassis plaque looks here:

It's all very odd as the body is clearly an MP4/4 although it's incorrectly wearing the #1 rather than #12. My guess is the car was used as an MP4/3 show car initially, but after the success of the 1988 season McLaren updated the body to MP4/4 and with the #1 to show it was a champion and used it for promotional purposes before selling. Probably even updated the interior as the dash looks MP4/4 (shifter is obviously fake though).

[JordanMugen]

It's all very odd as the body is clearly an MP4/4 although it's incorrectly wearing the #1 rather than #12. My guess is the car was used as an MP4/3 show car initially, but after the success of the 1988 season McLaren updated the body to MP4/4 and with the #1 to show it was a champion and used it for promotional purposes before selling. Probably even updated the interior as the dash looks MP4/4 (shifter is obviously fake though).

Thanks for the update!

It seems the business of F1 teams building "bitsa" show cars out of whatever spares they have lying around (and then painting them in later year liveries), has been going on for quite some time!

I guess, where relevant, the promo car departments would keep track of the original chassis number of the tub (where the show car is built around a real tub) with a view to restoring it to a period-correct bodywork and livery when its show car days are over -- though F1 teams perhaps tend to be more forward looking and focussed on the next deal than to do that, unless they have a dedicated heritage department.

Doesn't the driver famously sit lower & more reclined in the MP4/4 than the MP4/3, so with the combination of the more upright seating position of the MP4/3 paired with the lower slung "clamshell" of the MP4/4 would it therefore be very difficult for somebody to actually fit in the driver's seat of this MP4/3-4 hybrid show car?

[mclarenlm]

It's all very odd as the body is clearly an MP4/4 although it's incorrectly wearing the #1 rather than #12. My guess is the car was used as an MP4/3 show car initially, but after the success of the 1988 season McLaren updated the body to MP4/4 and with the #1 to show it was a champion and used it for promotional purposes before selling. Probably even updated the interior as the dash looks MP4/4 (shifter is obviously fake though).

Thanks for the update!

It seems the business of F1 teams building "bitsa" show cars out of whatever spares they have lying around (and then painting them in later year liveries), has been going on for quite some time!

I guess, where relevant, the promo car departments would keep track of the original chassis number of the tub (where the show car is built around a real tub) with a view to restoring it to a period-correct bodywork and livery when its show car days are over -- though F1 teams perhaps tend to be more forward looking and focussed on the next deal than to do that, unless they have a dedicated heritage department.

Doesn't the driver famously sit lower & more reclined in the MP4/4 than the MP4/3, so with the combination of the more upright seating position of the MP4/3 paired with the lower slung "clamshell" of the MP4/4 would it therefore be very difficult for somebody to actually fit in the driver's seat of this MP4/3-4 hybrid show car?

Yes, the MP4/3 and MP4/4 seating positions are different. The MP4/4 much like the BT55 (my favorite F1 car). This old article from years ago I read claims the SSC car they had on display was a real Hercules spare tub albeit not used. I have my doubts a real tub was used and a "SSC" chassis plaque put on it. Every show car I've seen could never be modified to be a real working car and the "tubs" are not even near the real aluminum honeycomb sandwiched by carbon. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. I also believe they are missing the full serial # in this article, too. It should be MP4/6/SSC/19 and not MP4/SSC/19. https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cultur ... our-lobby/

Being this MP4/3 has a #2 and Honda's show car is #10 and that MP4/6 is #19 I'm wondering now if that last number is in sequence of all show cars they ever made rather than specific to that particular year/chassis. If not, hopefully with Honda having #10 that could mean there are #1-9 MP4/4 show cars because I want one in my living room! lol MP4/4/2 (the real one that won in Japan by Senna) used to hang on the wall of it's second to last owner. He since sold it and it's in Chicago now. I can't find that photo of the car hanging on the wall unfortunately with the owner sitting on his couch under it. The Marconi one reminded me of that.