F1 in schools - CO2 cartridge burst

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paulwils7
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F1 in schools - CO2 cartridge burst

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Hi, I am currently working on a car design for the f1 in schools comp...I think you are all familiar with this competition already. Cars are designed from balsa and raced down a 20m track powered by CO2 cartridges.

My question relates to why rockets have those funnel shaped bits on the end. I have seen some previous posts on this site and would like to integrate some of these ideas into my car. Also would it be better to have larger diameter wheels over small diameter wheels.

I am using CATIA to design our car and would be greatful if anyone could conduct some CFD analysis of our teams design. As part of the competition, we have to have shown that we have collaborated with industry. It seems this is the perfect place to do this and your help would be most appreciative.

Cheers
Paul

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Tom
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For this small, thin, light wheels are best.

Large diameters are good if the wheels themselves are powered, because for every turn of the wheel you are covering a length of ground the same as the circumference, so when the engine (power pack) turns the wheel once it is going further in the same amount of time, therefore it is faster.

For this F1 in schools though the power is supplied by propulsion created from the 'rocket' equal and opposite reactions etc. This means that it won't matter on wheel sive because you're always going the same speed. concentrate on making a car with a small frontal area, we had a catermerang idea, and making it light and pretty.
Murphy's 9th Law of Technology:
Tell a man there are 300 million stars in the universe and he'll believe you. Tell him a bench has wet paint on it and he'll have to touch to be sure.

Mikey_s
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Paul,

to put it very simply the rocket nozzle gives the expanding gases something extra to push against. More inf here; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_engine_nozzles

Forward motion is generated by a rocket motor (or a jet engine) is a consequence of Newtons second law of motion; for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Throwing a load of gas out of the back of a rocket exerts an equal and opposite reaction to the rocket, pushing it forward. As the hot gases exit the rocket motor they are still expanding, the nozzle constrains the expanding gases and gives an extra nudge to the vehicle. The faster you can make the gases move, the more thrust you will get.

As an interesting digression NASA (and others) have been working on a new and more manoueverable (sp?) rocket motor called an aerospike for some years. This works in the same way, but 'the other way round' (more inf here; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerospike_engine) and rather than having to have massively powerful servos to direct the rocket thrust, they would only need to vary the fuel supply asymmetrically to steer the vehicle. (but it has the same shape as the inside of the nozzle for the same reason).

If you want to use something similar in your project you will need to know how much the gas exiting the 'rocket' will expand and design a nozzle accordingly... but I think your time would be better spent making the vehicle lighter, or more aerodynamic as the gains (at atmospheric pressure) will be rather modest.

hope this helps
Mike

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mini696
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What are your limitation (rules)?

Won't the funnel foul the 'starting mechanism?

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flynfrog
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me expericne the best way to win with these cars is to cut weight my car won going down the track on its lid. the wheels never touched the ground

a shell car can be made extremly strong and light. i set up a router table and left a 3mm wall all around the car

cfd would be over kill as the cars dont go that fast weight is the main killer rolling resistance dosent matter to much just find the lightes wheels you can aluminum axels also help

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mini696
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flynfrog wrote:me expericne the best way to win with these cars is to cut weight my car won going down the track on its lid. the wheels never touched the ground
That just tells me your competition was useless.

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flynfrog
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mini696 wrote:
flynfrog wrote:me expericne the best way to win with these cars is to cut weight my car won going down the track on its lid. the wheels never touched the ground
That just tells me your competition was useless.
and i cheated with a 12gram co2 cartdige

but serously at the speeds they travel air has very little to do with it

mass is the biggest factor even rolling resitance is not that big of a deal i used aluminum axels machined my own wheels to cut rolling resitance i even had bearings installed but took them of to save weight

Mikey_s
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Flynfrog, did you have flexy wings too? :lol:

I have never particpated in such a comp (too old!!), but intuition tells me that weight and friction are the keys to this competition. You have a limited mass of CO2 which you need to throw out the back of the car to move the car forwards. That means that you need to minimise the weight of the car so that the equal and opposite reaction force is maximised in respect of moving the vehicle.

Given the limitied mass to propel the vehicle it is important not to waste energy in respect of friction losses. i.e. minimise rolling resistance (thin, hard wheels - properly aligned) and at least a streamlined body to minimise air resistance (becomes more important if your vehicle is very light).

Mini - comments such as yours are really not necessary - in any case, I guess a lot depends on whether the rule book states that the car must a) posess wheels, and b) must travel on them. If FF's car won on its lid I would say that probably says it would have won by an even larger margin on its wheels.

Having checked out the F1 in schools website I would say that the competition is far from useless and presents real world challenges to school kids in an interesting and challenging manner. If it encourages more kids to look at engineering as a career then it is without doubt an excellent programme.
Mike

paulwils7
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thanks for the replys gentlemen, as a teacher I find this competition to be a fanstastic 'real world' excercise in getting students involved in 'real' engineering. It a lot more than simply building a light car thats powered by CO2 gas!

I can tell you that the minimum weight is 55g and pretty much all of the entrants in the comp are wise enough to make their car comply to the minimum weight. They are all powered by the same CO2 cartridge supplied by the organisers so you can't change anything on that front. Once the cars are in parque ferme you are not allowed to touch them for the duration of the event. This prevents any 'tweeks' that may be possible. I have even heard of teams using a hairdryer to heat up the balsa where the cartridge goes to gain more speed. Obviously you can no longer do this with 'parque ferme'.

So all that being said, if students are designing cars at 55g then it looks as though the things that set them apart are rolling resistance and aero. Marks are awarded for teams that have shown 'thinking outside of the box'.

Cheers
Paul

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flynfrog
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with a min weight i would try to keep teh bottom as flat as possible and a genraly streamlined shap if you wanted you could make a wind tunnel with a leaf blower spend most of my focus getting teh wheels allinged and rolling well

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flynfrog
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also get the weight as low as possible for stability

inhearnt problem of my car

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mini696
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Mikey_s wrote: Mini - comments such as yours are really not necessary - in any case, I guess a lot depends on whether the rule book states that the car must a) posess wheels, and b) must travel on them. If FF's car won on its lid I would say that probably says it would have won by an even larger margin on its wheels.
I agree that it would have won by a larger margin if it remained on its wheels. However, that doesnt mean his competition was worthy.

I wasnt having a gripe at him. I was having a gripe at his COMPETITION.

paulwils7
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Fkyfrog, what time did your car run? Let's see a picture of it and evaluate its overall design.

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Ciro Pabón
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This is probably the same idea of flynfrog (I couldn't understand his post 100%), but couldn't part of the CO2 escape through small holes under the body to create an air support, instead of using wheels? Like the "air-pong" tables?

This would give the car an ultra-low rolling resistance coefficient. I do not know if this implies an excesive waste of "fuel", but for the low weight you mention and the mandatory propulsion system, it could be a winner. If this is feasible, I would suggest for this "hovercar" to have wheels anyway, to "fall on them" once the CO2 pressure goes below the "sustaining" point, in order to use all the remaining gas and, also, to use the inertia the car has when it runs out of fuel. Steering or keeping the car in a straight line would be a hard one to resolve.

About the bearings, I've found nothing can beat the old jewel-bearings for clocks for low drag. They are light, easy to find and easy to reuse. But I guess they would not be useful for wheels, as they are made for vertical loads. Perhaps if you "clamp" the axle between two of them...

At least, if you use the air suspension and the jewel-bearings, the name for the car is clear: "The Ruby Slipper"... :D

I concur with Flyn's remarks about the drag coefficient being less important. I posted here a extremely simple worksheet that gives you the approximate energy you spend on inertia, drag and rolling for F1 cars, if you want to check. Anyway, here you will find one of the lowest drag coefficients measured in history (0.06!), based in the form of a boxfish. I posted somewhere in the forum another article about this car. I don't know if it will work, but it has one of the most important engineering characteristics: it is super cool! :wink:

On the principle that rolling resistance is more or less constant and drag resistance varies with the square of velocity, I bet the problem is on the rocket-propulsion efficiency, to overcome inertia, as Flyn points out. In this case, you could try to make a proper nozzle. The theory is here.

The idea is that the impulse you'll get is:

Image

This leads to the idea that the only important parameter in nozzle design is the expansion ratio:

Image

This is true IF THE CHAMBER PRESSURE IS CONSTANT (sorry for yelling). As this is not your case, because as the CO2 is expended you have lower and lower pressure, you could try an aerospike nozzle, like Mikey_s suggests. Rocket engineers use aerospikes only for high altitude rockets, but this is because they keep a constant chamber pressure.

Besides, this is true in theory, but engineering is an entirely different matter: if you have not measured it, you have made no engineering.

Here you have some typical values of form factors, taken from the same source, for different types of nozzles:

Image

Please, take in account, before losing too much time with the aerospike concept, that it works in part because of the supersonic flow effects and the problem of the ambient pressure going from atmospheric to zero, that (I guess) are not problems in your design... :)

Aerospike nozzle being tested:
Image

Legendary Messerschmit 262, one of the first jet aircrafts (and the first one to be used regularly in combat) showing the spiked bodies on the jet exhaust, used to vary the throat area for maximum efficiency:
Image

So, in essence, you have the inverse problem of rocket engineers: ambient pressure is constant, while chamber pressure decreases all the time down to zero. This gives me another idea: if you use some kind of plug like the one shown for the Me262, you could use a spring under the plug. As the chamber pressure decreases, the spring stretches and the plug moves backwards of the nozzle, diminishing the throat area. Another idea that seems hard to engineer, but it has the merit that I've never heard of a "reversed aero-spike". :wink:
Last edited by Ciro Pabón on 22 Sep 2006, 17:05, edited 1 time in total.
Ciro

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Ciro Pabón
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Ups. Repost by mistake while editing the previous post.
Ciro