Jackie Stewart and Mosley speak up (differently)

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manchild
manchild
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Jackie Stewart and Mosley speak up (differently)

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http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/54633
autosport.com wrote: Stewart: Alonso penalty damaging to F1

Sunday, September 24th 2006, 08:09 GMT

Former world champion Jackie Stewart believes the penalty imposed on Fernando Alonso in the Italian Grand Prix could be damaging to Formula One's reputation, as it reinforces the perception that the sport's governing body is biased in favour of Ferrari.

Alonso was penalised by the race stewards at Monza after they said he had impeded Ferrari's Felipe Massa during qualifying. And while the stewards acknowledged the Spaniard did not block deliberately, they relegated him to 10th place on the grid.

Stewart, however, says the penalty was wrong and could have futher ramifications for the sport as a whole.

"I think it was a very questionable, and therefore rather worrying, decision," the Scotsman told the October issue of F1 Racing magazine.

"And, having looked carefully at the video footage, I have to say I regard it as ludicrous that a penalty was imposed on someone who was driving as fast as he could in order to get his next lap in and was never closer than 90-odd metres to the car he was supposed to be impeding.

"On top of that, it's also an extremely unfortunate thing to have happened to F1, especially as even before all this occurred there was already a perception that the FIA was favouring Ferrari, and had been favouring them for some time.

"I'm not saying that perception is correct; no, I'm just saying it's a perception. But perceptions are important.

"People have suspected it for a long time - and indeed, for example, there are still some question marks over why so many Ferrari or Ferrari-associated people have seats on the FIA World Motor Sport Council.

"So I think the FIA have to be very careful."

Stewart's views echo those of several in the F1 paddock, including Renault F1 CEO Flavio Briatore, who accused the governing body of trying to fix this year's championship results - although the Italian then retracted his comments, saying they were made in jest.

In response to the criticisms, the FIA moved to ensure there is no repeat of the controversy surrounding Alonso's qualifying penalty.

FIA race director Charlie Whiting wrote to the teams in the week after the Monza race and told them that "only in cases where it appears to race control that there has been a clear and deliberate attempt to impede another driver will the stewards be asked to intervene."

Nevertheless, FIA president Max Mosley has again rebuffed claims of favouritism towards Ferrari, saying there was no real evidence to support the accusation - and pointing at previous occasions when Ferrari's Michael Schumacher was also punished as example of the stewards' lack of bias.

"It's not true at all, there are really no arguments supporting this view," Mosley told Italy's Gazzetta dello Sport. "I think even Briatore recognizes that now.

"Let's consider what happened in Hungary. In that occasion I feel Schumacher was penalized too heavily, because his infraction did not cause any dangerous situation.

"Alonso, by contrast, should have been penalized much more heavily for what he did against [Robert] Doornbos, because that was a potentially dangerous behaviour.

"In any case, my opinion doesn't count, because these are matters analysed and judged by the stewards on site."

Mosley added that the recent controversy will not have any effect on Alonso and Schumacher, as they enter the final showdown for this year's championship, just two points apart and with three races to go.

"I'm sure they'll both be OK, they won't feel influenced," he said. "There are two exceptional drivers: in some races, Schumacher probably went too far while in others Alonso let his emotion get the better of him.

"These are common issues for every champion in top sports. But both of them, particularly Schumacher, have contributed enormously to improve the spectacle of F1
."
Max Mussolini wrote:Alonso, by contrast, should have been penalized much more heavily for what he did against [Robert] Doornbos, because that was a potentially dangerous behaviour.
Overtaking under red flag isn't potentially more dangerous than what Alonso did?!

He is really full of s***. :roll:

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boban-mk
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Watch this really carefull.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nk-ur_o0Wu4
and compare to this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfqmHckswVE

I'm sorry but you are far from reality.

You can say that there schumacher played really stuppid, because intention of Alonso was just that, but you can't compare dangerousity of those incidents at all.

RH1300S
RH1300S
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Max is muddying the waters as usual. He actually avoids commenting on the Alonso/Monza incident and turns it right round.

Stewart is right - the events at Monza gave the IMPRESSION of favouritism. Also, I think any sane person would agree the penalty was wrong. Even Max stepped in to address the issue (after the fact) - he could have given a much simpler response.........but no, as ever he has to put some spin in there :roll:

Was Alonso's move worse than ignoring a Red Flag? Nope.......Alonso/Dornbos was pure hot-headed, dangerous and ill-advised - but also two men able to finely judge a move like that - looked worse than it was. Schumacher........in itself, not dangerous; but it showed a total arrogant disregard for what a Red Flag on track means - he has been racing all his life, I think he must have a vague idea by now :wink: You can't have degrees of "acceptable" when a Red Flag is out.

Venom
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The difference is that Alonso did that deliberately because he thought he was the owner the world.

And Schumacher did it because he didn't see the flags.
The trouble with the rat-race is that even if you win, you're still a rat.

mcdenife
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That doesnt mean they both should not have been punished. I think that had alonso's punishment come after shuey's then he would most likely have been punished more severely. Because I think alonso was punished with what the fia thought was severe but fair (for the sake of the championship). Shuey's punishment however was probably what was mandated for a red flag infrigement (deliberately or not). They could not have forseen shuey's subsequent infrigement and could therefore not say, in retrospect, well maybe we were too lenient on alonso. Which is why I think it this is the fia is trying to engineer a down-to-the-wire championship.
I have to say tho that I hink JS is absolutely right and to agree with RH1300s that Max is mudying the waters as usual. In my view he has never been able to put forward a coherent argument on anything other that to either belittle his opponents or confuse (or is it confound) the issue.
Long experience has taught me this about the status of mankind with regards to matters requiring thought. The less people know and understand about them, the more positively they attempt to argue concerning them; while on the other hand, to know and understand a multitude of things renders men cautious in passing judgement upon anything new. - Galileo..

The noblest of dogs is the hot dog. It feeds the hand that bites it.

manchild
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boban-mk wrote:I'm sorry but you are far from reality.

You can say that there schumacher played really stuppid, because intention of Alonso was just that, but you can't compare dangerousity of those incidents at all.
"Brakechecking" is something based on opinion or marshalls on spot and stewards watching the video while overtaking under red flag is explicit manouver that isn't judged with questioning it's intention or real danger - it is absolutely prohibited and as such apart from hitting another car, driving in oposite direction or parking on the circuit the greatest possible offence.

If you've ever read FIA sporting regulations, marshalling books or attended pre race briefing you'd know that overtaking under red flag is kind of offence that leads to instant disqualification and further sanctions usually meaning disqualification for at least 6 or 12 months. What Schumacher did is at least 10 times more serious offence and if all drivers can see red flags than he has problems with his eyes and shouldn’t race.

Alonso had "incident" with another driver under green flag while Schuey overtook 3 or 4 cars under red flag - not one car but 3 or 4! That only confirms that he is never considering general safety and that his main concern is winning at all costs...
Venom wrote:The difference is that Alonso did that deliberately because he thought he was the owner the world.

And Schumacher did it because he didn't see the flags.
Who said Alonso did it deliberately? Perhaps Doornbos braked late - that would look exactly the same as "brake checking". Not seeing red flag is as much of excuse as going trough the red light - try telling a cop or the judge that you did it only because you didn't see the traffic light. :roll:

Venom
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mcdenife, why would someone, sorry, anyone pass under a red flag deliberately when they know they will get penalised, and won't complete a successful lap anyway.
manchild wrote:Who said Alonso did it deliberately?
1. he expresses his anger on the pit straight by raising his hand
2. he then swerves onto his side
3. who does a break test with car behind in corner
4. it isn't the first/last time he does that
The trouble with the rat-race is that even if you win, you're still a rat.

mcdenife
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mcdenife, why would someone, sorry, anyone pass under a red flag deliberately when they know they will get penalised, and won't complete a successful lap anyway.
I never said he did it delibrately. I meant delibrate or not is no reason why he should not be punished. Ignorance is not an excuse in law.
ie: if, god forbid, u kill man, the question is not whether or not it is deliberate, but that a man has been killed unlawfully. Intent (or not) becomes an issue come sentencing. Proving intent (or not), in itself though secondary, is what we argue about later.
Long experience has taught me this about the status of mankind with regards to matters requiring thought. The less people know and understand about them, the more positively they attempt to argue concerning them; while on the other hand, to know and understand a multitude of things renders men cautious in passing judgement upon anything new. - Galileo..

The noblest of dogs is the hot dog. It feeds the hand that bites it.

manchild
manchild
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Venom wrote:mcdenife, why would someone, sorry, anyone pass under a red flag deliberately when they know they will get penalised, and won't complete a successful lap anyway.
Venom, why would someone, sorry, anyone "brake-check" deliberately when they know they will get penalised, and won't complete a successful lap anyway. :wink:

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f1.redbaron
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manchild wrote: Who said Alonso did it deliberately? Perhaps Doornbos braked late - that would look exactly the same as "brake checking". Not seeing red flag is as much of excuse as going trough the red light - try telling a cop or the judge that you did it only because you didn't see the traffic light. :roll:
I did it once. Only I told him that I was sneezing (yeah, I'd like to see him prove I didn't), and I was caught off guard, so I decided to make a run for it. It worked.

Doornbos was a victim...why would he brake late? On the other hand, Alonso, more and more often, had been acting like he is the only one on the track. His finger and fist waving had gotten out of hand. Being under extreme pressure from Michael (who was closing the gap in the championship), and knowing that he probably will not be willing any championships until 2009, he snapped and acted the way he did.

In the video showing Alonso and Doornbos, you can clearly see that Alonso had turned in on Doornbos...way too early. The corner wasn't for another couple of seconds, and, let's face it, it was way off the racing line.

The bottom line is that steward had access to both of their car's telemetries (which is something nobody here does), and they saw what they saw. Simple as that.

Schumacher's penalty...well, he broke the rule and he was penalized. However, (I can't believe I'm saying this), Max is right. There is no way the two infractions were the same. Did he, or didn't he see the red light...well, it is very common to see marshals make the mistake (remember Turkey this year when the marshal up in the tower kept waving the green flag, despite the fact that there was a car that just went off the road, right under his nose.

Finally, we are beating the dead horse...again!

Tp
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Manchild wrote:Alonso had "incident" with another driver under green flag while Schuey overtook 3 or 4 cars under red flag - not one car but 3 or 4! That only confirms that he is never considering general safety and that his main concern is winning at all costs...
Safety? It's either overtake the cars or crash into them because Alonso is driving so god dam slow. Too slow in fact. Even the BMW behind is ready to overtake.

And for Alonso's incident it was simply dangerous driving and was right of the stewards to penalise.
Manchild wrote:Who said Alonso did it deliberately? Perhaps Doornbos braked late - that would look exactly the same as "brake checking". Not seeing red flag is as much of excuse as going trough the red light - try telling a cop or the judge that you did it only because you didn't see the traffic light
If you watch, Alonso breaks, turns, then instead of accelerating slows down further up to a point where Doornbus who is accelerating through the corner nearly collides with Alonso who's parked on the apex.

Venom
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Nice expression f1.redbaron :)
manchild wrote:Venom, why would someone, sorry, anyone "brake-check" deliberately when they know they will get penalised, and won't complete a successful lap anyway. :wink:
Alonso never believed he'll get penalised because brake testing doesn't really lie in the book of FIA. It wasn't a race, so stewards weren't bothered about paying too much attention to the track. Right Alonso? :D
The trouble with the rat-race is that even if you win, you're still a rat.

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boban-mk
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manchild wrote:Who said Alonso did it deliberately? Perhaps Doornbos braked late - that would look exactly the same as "brake checking". Not seeing red flag is as much of excuse as going trough the red light - try telling a cop or the judge that you did it only because you didn't see the traffic light. :roll:
From this i can see that you didn't watch that incident or you are blind or brain blinded. Sory but you are not out of reality, you are much more.

Other thing that you write is not wort to comment. All i can say that truth always hurt the most. From the first video that you didn't see :roll: and from the second when you realize the great idea of Alonso to brake that almost get hit by BMW so Schumacher had to pass them.
Yes, that is reality and I know you are hurt, that your idol is not that perfect as you imagine.
Not all people in the world are blind. Those are two of many reasons why your champion is unrespected of all in F1 history. And if you know how many supporters he has outside of Spain don't get supprised.

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mini696
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I dont think Manchild is idolising Alonso. I dont think anyone idolises him, he is becomming the next MS with his crappy attitude.

Telemetry can be read in many different ways and can then be interpreted to suit what you want to find.

Alonso didnt swerve onto Doornbos, he was already merging that way whilst he was waving hello.

How slow is too slow when there is a red flag on the track? How dare anyone claim "he was going to slow under the red flag so I decided to pass him".

Who are we to judge that Alonso didn't suffer understeer and slowed to avoid drifting out offline?

Doornbos may have braked late to continue putting the wind up Alonso.

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gcdugas
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Wasn't it Dornbos that Schumi ran into in China last year? Or was that Albers? Either way, things happen that appear to be brake testing and are nothing of the sort. The press inflames things.. there is usually nothing to it. Years ago Schumi said DC was trying to kill him in the rain at Spa but that was certainly not the case. But the media eats this stuff up.
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