F1 Night races

[Ray]

...don't see why you need to get insulting on an open forum - if you're passionate about how easily possible night racing is, you'd be better off directing your frustration at those that run F1 rather than criticizing the observations of those that support it.

Dont worry SZ, ignore the insults, he does it quite often, the insulting thing...i hope he improves from now on.

How is that an insult DS? It's an observation. You have made some real no-brainer comments yourself. Hell you couldn't even stay on topic when this subject started.


You guys are thickheaded. Most of the talk has been about can it be done. But at the same time, those people can't see past the end of their noses. YES it can be done. But the F1 machine is too proud, ignorant, dumb or whatever to ask help from someone who's done it. The experts. All this talk about research and development, testing and other things is utter crap. The R&D has been done, the testing phases are done. All this has been perfected. All you have to do is tailor it to the circuit. Which, yes, will take some testing and site surveying. F1 wants to start from scratch and that, in my opinion, is very very stupid. You know, as much as alot of people think that American racing is easy and juvenile, it's a better show for the fans by a wide margin.

Hey, no offense intended. I was just pointing out what I though was a dumb train of thought to have. I love this forum/site, F1 and all the great people who visit this site.

[checkered]

I, for one

am now more baffled than anything else. Where did you get all this? I find it unlikely it was from me, but let me know if that's the case and I'll try and be clearer the next time. Can't speak for anyone else here and don't want to, but let's just state this for the record:

- I'm fully aware the lighting can be done and it has been done already.
- I know that there are lighting components and systems available.
- I can't remember reading it anywhere that F1 would start "from scratch".
- I can't remember reading it anywhere that F1 wouldn't go to "experts".
- The proportion of motor racing in the US that is "easy and juvenile", as far as I can tell, isn't any greater than anywhere else. I can relate to the open wheelers and ALMS better, NASCAR I find too unfamiliar and the same goes for ovals. That has nothing to do with disrespect or arrogance.

To me the "tailoring, testing and surveying" part is nothing to be sneered at, it's just as important as any other phase in the process. In fact, I'm very interested in what can be done with "T, T & S". And I think it is also generally in the nature of a certain type of a person that has something to do with F1 to consider whether he/she can improve on what has already been done. But certainly not every part of these speculations has to be taken seriously from the get-go.

There are interesting developments afoot in lighting with OLEDs, luminous fabrics, fibre optics, research into "light pollution", producing a daylight spectrum and such. But as the schedule seems to be a bit tight, the first night races apparently during 2008 already, it does seem likely that the organizers of these will quickly opt for the most complete available options. And that's OK by me.

[SZ]

a nice tall glass 'o chill out juice, ray... you seem to enjoy labelling people 'thickheaded' which sounds a little 'proud, ignorant, dumb or whatever' given your otherwise very valid points.

the F1 machine will find a way of doing it that meets all political, time and cash constraints as deemed by it's leaders, you can bank on that (not least because hollow threats won't move melbourne from the calender). there will will be night races, of that there's no question. there's not even a guarantee F1 wants to start from scratch on this. all anyone knows - you included - there are two venues eagerly, publicly awaiting a directive from the FIA on what to do and how to do it. a third venue will very likely to the same directives and will note they've been phrased as to set a bar so high it is not feasible for them to be met.

when you put aside the technical, legal and logistic requirements re night racing, you're still left with a good deal of political rationale and PR maneuvering.

why don't you write the FIA a letter. or just accept that to get certain races on an off the calender in short order - e.g. to be able to generate enough PR that host venues will waive their contractual rights to stage a GP - this is the way things need to be done.

-you make some noise
-you set a bar that's impossible (without specifying the exact requirements)
-you generate pressure by signing other GP's to the same requirements
-you generate local, public ire
-you let that fester, knowing the event runs at a loss, it's very loud, etc
-you know there's an election year for it's hosts pre the contract being up
-you generate more pressure by signing additional GP's in the region, pushing the calender to the limit and needing to cut at least one GP (can you imaging suzuka under lights? can you imagine any company - with real relevance to australia and F1 (name ONE, i dare you) putting up AUD$30m to host the GP here? they're our losses, and honda put in more to have it at suzuka!)
-you judge the PR of the moment and then set the bar/the requirements impossibly high for the event you want to cut loose, but not so high that the events you want to keep freak out

before too long you won't have to wait for the last melbourne GP in 2010. you'll have melbourne out of their requirements long before that. BE is nothing if not good in business acumen...

so while your points are very valid - if all that was required was to light up a track for night racing - there's far more to it than that. you'd be... what's the word... thickheaded to think that it were so simple.

PS
i don't think anyone would doubt F1 pales as a better show for the fans vs US stock cars (or euro tourers, or motoGP, or SBK, or whatever). at least when the rules weren't neutered melbourne was almost as interesting, carnage aplenty that said... there are austalian F1 fans - myself included - that don't want to see it go. hence the long posts.

[Ray]

All right, all right. I'm getting beat up pretty bad here. I tend not to beat around the bush and say, very bluntly, what is on my mind. Allow me to redeem myself.

The reason I went way overboard with my comments is that it seems that some are repeating arguments that are a tad ill informed I guess. That is why I said some were thickheaded. Not going to point fingers, but if you read the previous comments you'll understand what I mean. Let me clarify what I meant.

Alot of talk on here is about how this should be tested. GP2 I don't think is a viable way to test things out. There isn't any need to test how well a driver can see. IRL and CART have the same visibility that an F1 car has, and they have no complaints of not being able to see. My point is that there are proven systems that work wonderfully. With a small amount of tailoring, these systems would work just as well for F1. I understand that ovals are different from road courses. I also understand that the times that the races are going to take place may cause problems for the local communities. But the testing so to speak should be about the locale and not whether it can be done, but rather is it worth the investment. I don't think that Monaco would be a good idea now that I think about it. It's alot better during the day.

I just think that doing it once to see how it goes would be very much worth it. Some of you guys might actually like it. My Father doesn't like F1 cause there is very little passing. I love it cause it's different than anything I've seen here in the States. Can't be any worse than the asinine things Max sits around and thinks up can it? HE is the problem!


Again, sorry for being such a jerk. I don't mean to be so rude, I just get riled up about things too much sometimes. I'll be sure and not be rude anymore.

[Carlos]

Your OK Ray - and our "go to guy" for all questions on F-18 maintenence - good to see your back and posting. Well met - my friend. Like Checkered said - we can't expect the FIA to say {well, we just copied NASCAR on this lighting thing} - Everybody has to solve a problem their own way [ or else they'll take away their desk and chair.] - can't have that.

Edit - Like SZ and many others have said, there's a bit of politics involved, it's about more than light bulbs.

[SZ]

no probs ray, i'm just p****d that i didn't get out to a night race the last time i was in the US.

as for recent news down here regards the GP... here comes the intended cavalry:

"Anger as auditor queries GP's value"
http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/ ... ntentSwap1

"GP costs community dear, says report"
http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/ ... 60954.html

the chorus starts...

[ds.raikkonen]

...don't see why you need to get insulting on an open forum - if you're passionate about how easily possible night racing is, you'd be better off directing your frustration at those that run F1 rather than criticizing the observations of those that support it.

Dont worry SZ, ignore the insults, he does it quite often, the insulting thing...i hope he improves from now on.

How is that an insult DS? It's an observation. You have made some real no-brainer comments yourself. Hell you couldn't even stay on topic when this subject started.

I stayed on the topic Mr.Ray...juts giving opinions, not waging a bloody war that you tried to...'Observation' eh? WHat i believe is that yur a frustrated person taking it out in this forum at other ppl...if yu think yur the smartest, yur pathetically wrong...if you cant give simple opinions w/o yur 'Observations' plz dont reply. Just look at how others reply..learn what is called 'decency'.

[Carlos]

Ds - Ray offered his regrets outright - maybe accept a gesture without continued rancor.

[ds.raikkonen]

Allright...can we end this now plz. But that was definitely not a way to treat a junior in F1, ive got lots to learn, as i said, im new to it. didnt want to say any of those things..

[forzasab]

Actually i have a question for Bernie-

Is this a "World" championship or a "European" championship???

Just thought i'd ask that as it seems your catering to you and your neighbours needs but NOT the worlds.

So after all this can you guys understand where i'm coming from?

[checkered]

Not so fast, says Max Mosley:

"The thing is, we've not actually had any application yet to run a night race

... There are no (existing) criteria. If and when we get an application to run a night race, that will have to go to the circuit commission, and that will go to the safety commission, and eventually the world council.

... And there will be criteria - there will be criteria for armco, safety barriers, run-off areas. There would have to be criteria for the lighting, and all this would be looked at. We obviously would not approve a night race unless we were satisfied with the safety levels.

... I suspect that, as is also usual with new circuits, that we would want to run some sort of other racing that way before we committed the world championship."

Maybe we should send Ray to have a word with him, after all!

[SZ]

Actually i have a question for Bernie-

Is this a "World" championship or a "European" championship???

Just thought i'd ask that as it seems your catering to you and your neighbours needs but NOT the worlds.

So after all this can you guys understand where i'm coming from?

to BE the world is the paying audience. if you can make your world bigger it's all good! sometimes that involves cutting off the bits of it that hold you back.

checkered, where BE is an excellent entrepreneur, MM is both a physicist and a lawyer; this basically over qualifies him as an anal retentive pain in the a** when it comes to overseeing any technical changes to the way F1 runs. i'd say BE has a vision regards what races and the calender will look like, and that MM is being realistic about there being a few checkpoints needing to be met before the vision becomes reality in a technical and legal sense, that's all.

still... it's all being left a bit late for a next year start...

yet that said it's very likely an inevitability.

could it be that there's an onus on the individual event organisers to present a case for the feasibility of a night race at their circuits?

[Ray]

Not so fast, says Max Mosley:

"The thing is, we've not actually had any application yet to run a night race

... There are no (existing) criteria. If and when we get an application to run a night race, that will have to go to the circuit commission, and that will go to the safety commission, and eventually the world council.

... And there will be criteria - there will be criteria for armco, safety barriers, run-off areas. There would have to be criteria for the lighting, and all this would be looked at. We obviously would not approve a night race unless we were satisfied with the safety levels.

... I suspect that, as is also usual with new circuits, that we would want to run some sort of other racing that way before we committed the world championship."

Maybe we should send Ray to have a word with him, after all!

THAT is exactly the kind of stupidity that I am talking about. Max is too stupid to grab hold and ask ChampCar how they did it and what teething problems they had and thier solutions. There are criteria that he can use, plus cars don't behave any differently in concern to safety at night versus the day. Some circuits that may not be true, but overall, nighttime doesn't mean anything other than the type of lighting. Before anyone says you can't compare the two, they are the same basic car.

[SZ]

THAT is exactly the kind of stupidity that I am talking about. Max is too stupid to grab hold and ask ChampCar how they did it and what teething problems they had and thier solutions.

whoa, let me get this straight-

you're fortunate enough to have sat down long enough with MM and assessed his stupidity on this? you're more qualified that him to make these sort of judgements too?

mate if you're 'all that', christ, i'll gladly bow out of this one, i'm clearly in the presence of your greatness...

[Ray]

No no. You misunderstand me. He's wanting to start from scratch. Which is not a very smart thing to do. I'm not saying I have all the answers, but Max is wanting to waste valueable time and money redoing work that has already been done. I honestly don't think that safety is an issue as long as you have adequate lighting in place. Which, of course, needs to be reasearched. He could tailor an existing system to fit their needs. Saving vast amounts of money. Which has been his thing about F1 for quite some time. Sounds kinda hypocritical to me.

I'm only saying that it's completely foolish to start from scratch. And about the only safety issue I see is the medical helicopter not being able to see good enough at night. Which is an immediate cancellation of a night race.