moRON speaks out again...

[zac510]

kilcoo, I agree with Ciro too, and very good points you make.

I think in-cabin levers and what not are the kind of thing you would have seen in pre-1980 but since then it's all been electronic. Certainly in this day everything is electronically activated or there is confidence that it will operate passively.

[allan]

isn't this what happens when u don't have enough downforce in straights?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-YBajPs9N4

[Saribro]

Not entirely, blowing over is a result of several factors.
http://www.mulsannescorner.com/techarticle1.htm

[AeroGT3]

Far fetched in my opinion.

It's utter rubbish. People LOOK for ways to claim Ferrari cheats. No other winning team faces the scrutiny Ferrari does.

And I'm no Ferrari fan at all. BMW man here

[nudge]

oh dear,
i thought this site had a slightly more mature readership than most, but the tittle of thread proves otherwise.
what is your problem..mclaren think ferrari are running an illegal floor and have raised the issue with the fia. the fia will therefore decide.
calling ron dennis stupid names for doing is job is pathetic beyond belief.

as it happen, i have heard a whisper that the ferrari mechanism includes a hydraulic moog valve, which if thats the case, certainly needs some explaining.

[manchild]

No other winning team faces the scrutiny Ferrari does.

No other winning team was caught cheating so many times. It is normal that people suspect convicted felon more than honorable citizen even after he served his time. It's not because someone hates Ferrari with no reason but because of events from Schumacherrari era. Just take for example previous season, 2006 - flexing wings, carbon ring, Rascasse parking. They've earned their reputation.

Or like this:

No other winning team faces the scrutiny Ferrari does.

I agree, Ferrari passes scrutiny with things no other team would.

Sometimes I think that their engineers aren't trying at all to develop any legal shape/device/system but constantly search for loopholes, premeditate alibis for illegal devices, hide things... I guess Ferrari has a team of lawyers and legal advisers working closely on development of car together with engineers.

[ginsu]

You'd say they solved the problems ginsu mentions: here you have an abstract entitled "Design Process of a Rotational Damper Based on a Magnetorheological Fluid" by four researchers: two of them work at FIAT.

Wow, ciro, that's development for you. I know the picture you showed was the Sachs Rotary Damper.



I know they have telescopic MR dampers that work quite well. Although, i've ridden in a car with them (Volvo S60R), and while I was impressed with the response and variability, the actual damping characteristics weren't that great, the car felt pretty rough over smaller bumps.

MR fluids are usually applied in one of two modes. MR fluid operating in valve mode, with fixed magnetic poles, may be appropriate for hydraulic controls, servo valves, dampers, and shock absorbers. The direct-shear mode with a moving pole, in turn, would be suitable for clutches and brakes, chucking/locking devices, dampers, breakaway devices and structural composites.

I guess a rotary damper would have it operating in shear mode which doesn't seem to be that common of a damper type. That is probably why I have not found a lot of information on it. The following quote was all I could find.

In this study, a small-scale rotary type of MR damper is designed, manufactured, and tested. The damper uses shear-mode behavior of the MR fluids and is designed based on the simple Bingham viscoplastic model. A prototype damper that can produce forces in the order of a few newtons is made and tested in the laboratory. It is found that the Bouc-Wen model, which has been used to emulate linear valve-mode MR dampers, can also portray the hysteretic behavior of the shear-mode rotary damper.

[allan]

No other winning team faces the scrutiny Ferrari does.

No other winning team was caught cheating so many times. It is normal that people suspect convicted felon more than honorable citizen even after he served his time. It's not because someone hates Ferrari with no reason but because of events from Schumacherrari era. Just take for example previous season, 2006 - flexing wings, carbon ring, Rascasse parking. They've earned their reputation.

Or like this:

No other winning team faces the scrutiny Ferrari does.

I agree, Ferrari passes scrutiny with things no other team would.

Sometimes I think that their engineers aren't trying at all to develop any legal shape/device/system but constantly search for loopholes, premeditate alibis for illegal devices, hide things... I guess Ferrari has a team of lawyers and legal advisers working closely on development of car together with engineers.

Typical MC.. it's ur opinion, and i completely disagree with it, but still it's urs

[West]

Um... every team SHOULD look for loopholes... Ferrari seems to do a better job than most people these days. It's just when your ambassador to the sport is notorious for somewhat dishonorable behavior (guess who), of course everybody is going to look down upon you.

I don't really know if the mass-damper exploited a loophole but it was a brilliant idea - sh*t the FIA "thought" it was a variable aero device. So were the expanding Michelin tires in 2003.

[Ciro Pabón]

Wow, ciro, that's development for you. I know the picture you showed was the Sachs Rotary Damper.

Sorry, ginsu, I did not explain myself correctly.

First, thanks for your references. The photo is awesome, thanks again. I haven't thought they could be used as clutches... that's another wow, but this time in "admiration mode".

Corvettes also uses linear MR dampers and they behave quite well. I tested (for a lap) a Z06 at Tocancipá, on a demo. I believe they are used on "normal" Ferraris, or so the Corvette owner said, but they are electronically controlled.

The videos from Gazzetta dello Sport that I posted are proof of Ferrari using MR dampers, after developing them. The pdf abstract proofs (maybe) they were designed by Sachs working with Fiat. The picture I posted is the actual Ferrari damper. Here is the article, by Sachs, where I took it from:

http://www.schwab-kolb.com/zf-sachs/en/sachs002.htm

I believe Sachs is the official provider of dampers for Ferrari. They are "fixed dampers" as pointed out: you have to change the whole unit for each track.

You can see they were used since May 2003, Spanish GP. Ferraris have been dominant since, if you don't take in account the time Renault used his own (now forbidden) chassis dampers. Coincidence?

Finally, here is a quote from "Saku", apparently an engineer at Renault's blog while Renault was testing at Barcelona, less than a month ago ( http://blog.renaultf1.com/index.php?en/ ... 4-february ), my emphasis:

"Also, last year Ferrari and McLaren tried to imitate the effects of our Mass Damper with traditional suspension technology. Renault have had to play catch up in this area in a very short amount of time.

Suspension geometry from what I've read is a very tricky art, and Renault are a little bit behind McLaren and Ferrari in this area.

After the 2005 debacle Ferrari spent a lot of time and money creating and researching suspension test beds, McLaren have been doing this for a long time too. I think it is for this reason the mass damper ban hurt us so much."

[kilcoo316]

kilcoo, I agree with Ciro too, and very good points you make.

I think in-cabin levers and what not are the kind of thing you would have seen in pre-1980 but since then it's all been electronic. Certainly in this day everything is electronically activated or there is confidence that it will operate passively.

While everyone (journalists and people on forums) are saying stalling is good, I've yet to hear it from someone actually in F1, and I've definitely yet to see a reason for it being good.


When the FIA are looking at the device, cables and pipes into and out of the spring/damper will mean its active, and result in its instant banning, of that, there can be no doubt.

Therefore, it has to be a passive system, which can only deflect downwards under aerodynamic load, or upwards under collision with kerbs etc.

[manchild]

Therefore, it has to be a passive system, which can only deflect downwards under aerodynamic load, or upwards under collision with kerbs etc.

It can't be legal even if it is passive. Movable aerodynamic is movable aerodynamic part and it is of no importance if it is passive or active. FIA regulations say that all parts influencing aero must be rigidly secured. If they are suspended on a device with spring than they are no rigidly secured with both aerodynamic load and kerb impact moving them.

Flexing wings are passive and they are banned. There were no cables and pipes on Renault's mass damper and it didn't even had direct contact with air flow but as we all know it was banned. I think FIA should calculate max aerodynamic load on that floor lip multiply it with 2 and than introduce static load test just as it does with wings.

[checkered]

The last time mech grip

was reduced (1998, grooves on tyres), Macca got the edge by lengthening their wheelbase. At the start of the season, the edge was pretty dominant in terms of speed. Maybe Ron has some special insight in what the options in making a longer wheelbase work are. Whether or not his own team has employed any or all of those options in the past.

[jaho101]

All this talk about moving floors has got me thinking . . . . .

http://youtube.com/watch?v=KQonPfZpRLY

[Ciro Pabón]

C'mon, Manchild, all teams use it. What do you propose? Expel all of them? FIA knows about it, they have regulated it. C'mon. It's smoke and mirrors from Mr. Dennis.

Nice video, jahoo