McLaren Engineers perspective.

[Ignis Fatuus]

Interestingly, there are engineers at McLaren, with the data in front of them, adamant that they still haven't seen from Alonso the sort of devastating high-speed precision that they used to routinely get from Raikkonen.

Strange. Raikkonen had five years to get used to the car. What do these engineers want to get out of this comparison?

Why they say these things now? The season just started.
With this attitude, they could have M. Schumacher in a car and not win IMHO.

They have a two time WDC in a team who won with a car that was not the quickest half of both seasons. Are they making excuses already?

[Keir]

Also some engineers who worked with both Senna and Raikkonen reckon that Raikkonen may even be faster than the great Ayrton.

If I'm not mistaken Senna's Mclaren from 1993 was the only Mclaren with sequential paddle shifters on steering wheel he ever drove.

To compare Senna and Kimi you'd have to put them in same car. Senna changed gears manually most of his career, pressed the clutch too. Unlike him Kimi never drove such F1 car so it is no surprise that he seams to be quicker dozing in the seat while tip of his fingers do the shifting.

You are.

The 1992 McLaren introduced in Brazil of the year had a paddle shift as well.

[mep]

I know some of you would try to argue with hungary 06.
But I recomend you to watch it again and think about a few thinks.

What was other in this race than in any other race?

-Alonso was able to overtake -wow,surprisingly!
-the track was wet, and it didn't rain during a race since long time

So maybe one has something to do with the other?

So let us watch a few overtaking manovers.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=KBh-2T0NDj0

Ah, at the start is the first hint.
His car seems to have a much better acceleration.
But all cars have traction control, the driver only has to put the
petal to the metal and wait for the answer from the car.
Everybody can this, and makes it equal.

Second hint comes after a few corners.
Then there is a BMW in front of him driving slower or with
equal speen into a corner and understeering to the outside.
Whereas Alonsos car managed this corner with a lower radius
and faster.
Do you think the BMW driver has forgotten to turn the wheel?
Or has the renault simply more grip regardless form what reason
(I would say tires).

Than on the next corner he drives outside around a RedBull.
This driver has not forgotten to turn the wheel but someone could argue
that he has forgotten to push the pedal.
Ah -after the start we know that the renauld has a super acceleration
on the wet and has optimal tires.

The next is the understeering second BMW -no problem at all.
And so on...
How much second is he faster a lap?
I don't know but everybody can see that he has a big advantage from
the car, TC, tires (compound + temperature+ how they work with the car)

So why is he not always so much better than the others?
I would say Hungary was not a race under normal conditions,
so you can't give much on it.

[Tom]

One thing that can't be doubted, Alonso is one hell of a brave guy.

He managed a 2:02 first lap, in the wet, overtaking at least 5 cars throughout, from the middle of the grid. That's stunning.

[RH1300S]

I don't agree mep

I just watched that - and for my money I was watching a racer on top of his game. Not flinching once, taking every opportunity and creating others. He may have had a car advantage but there are many other drivers on the grid who would NOT have been where Alonso was after the first lap.

IMHO - Kimi just edges Alonso on track in a straight fight; Alsonso is better over a whole race and able to think and react better as conditions change. He will also get more from his team over the course of a season.

Both men are the class of the field right now - we shouldn't be looking at taking one of them down.

[F1 Observer]

Also some engineers who worked with both Senna and Raikkonen reckon that Raikkonen may even be faster than the great Ayrton.

If I'm not mistaken Senna's Mclaren from 1993 was the only Mclaren with sequential paddle shifters on steering wheel he ever drove.

I believe that the updated version of the 1992's McLaren Honda V12 which raced on the second half of that year's championship also had paddle shifters on the steering wheel.I have a video of Ayrton, showing the start and the first lap of the 1992 Hungarian GP, in which he's not using manual transmission any longer.

[Tp]

So why is he not always so much better than the others?
I would say Hungary was not a race under normal conditions,
so you can't give much on it.

Monza 2003.

The one where he span the car after the TC switched itself off at the first chicane and Alonso had to start at the back of the grid. At the start he hit the back of another car and launched himself over it, ripping off the nose and the bargeboards. After coming in for a new nose and then setting off again he went straight on at the second chicane, causing severe damage to the undertray. Now, the car should of been undriveable, and he was a lap down. But from that point on he drove every lap of the race quicker than the race winner - just to finish 8th.

[F1 Observer]

Also some engineers who worked with both Senna and Raikkonen reckon that Raikkonen may even be faster than the great Ayrton.

If I'm not mistaken Senna's Mclaren from 1993 was the only Mclaren with sequential paddle shifters on steering wheel he ever drove.

To compare Senna and Kimi you'd have to put them in same car. Senna changed gears manually most of his career, pressed the clutch too. Unlike him Kimi never drove such F1 car so it is no surprise that he seams to be quicker dozing in the seat while tip of his fingers do the shifting.

You are.

The 1992 McLaren introduced in Brazil of the year had a paddle shift as well.

Correct.But McLaren suffered from the same kind of unreliability regarding that particular type of transmission that costed Williams both titles a year earlier,and that resulted in a Williams Renault 1-2 at Interlagos that year,Ayrton retiring from the race after a handfull of laps.

[manchild]

Ok, it doesn't change much the essence of what I tried to say. Senna drove less than 30 races with paddle shifters in two of the worst Mclarens he ever drove. Almost all of his legendary races (except Monaco 1992 and Donington 1993) and all of his titles were won with cars that had foot operated clutch and manually operated gearbox.

Kimi vs Alonso is identical as Senna vs Prost for example. Senna was fighter, fun to watch, you could see his speed and maneuvers but he was also occasionally inconsistent as he drove each race without thinking of championship and without calculation. Prost was smooth, constantly fast, no mistakes. None of these 4 is better or worse than the other, they're just drivers with different style. The only negative connotation could be the one regarding which effect their style had on their career.

Of course, we can't talk about Senna's career in that way but looking at Kimi and Alonso one could say that Alonso's style helped him win titles and that Kimi's style made him popular but also helped him loose at least one title.

[astsmtl]

I think his driving abilitys are overestimated because he won two
times the championship.

That's a nonsense!

But still i think it's pointless to discuss here "who is the best driver on the grid". Let's wait and see.

[zenvision]

Kimi's style made him popular but also helped him lose at least one title.

I don't think it cost him either in 2003 nor in 2005.

[jddh1]

unless you put both drivers in the the same car then how can you differentiate between the two? In fact, at least half the drivers on the grid are very good compared to one an other. their differences are minor and the one that wins the championship has that little extra in him that makes him just enough better then the rest.

i.e. If Hamilton, as a rookie, started with a backmarker, would he be as good as he showed he could be in the McLaren? See, there could be better drivers on the grid that get more out of their car then Alonso or Kimi get out of theirs, just because they need to do that to perform better, whereas these two don't do that as much since they have better equipment (car, engineers, etc).

As of right now, we know that Alonso is better than the previous team mates he had. Same goes for Kimi, Schumi and so on.

[bizadfar]

i think its interesting to hear the mclaren mechanics say that, and it reminds me of recently hearing norbert haug speak very highly of kimi, before and after the 07 australian gp, almost like he missed him a little bit compared to alonso. i totally agree that kimi is probably the faster driver, while fernando is the more complete. it is quite a shame that kimi didnt receive the drivers crown he deserved in 2005 (and that michael didnt receive the title he deserved after that awesome 2nd half comeback last year) and talking about the telemetry, i remember seeing something comparing michael to his teammate at the time, johnny herbert. the difference was astonishing. MS had the car at the limit all the time, and even in the interview when asked what separates him from other drivers MS responded by saying as much; that he simply was able to keep the car on the edge all the time. i also agree that its hard to compare kimi and ayrton senna unless they are in the same machine, but obviously its fair to say that each is the class of their respective fields, because the guys theyre racing against do have similar cars.

yup, MS has alot of wheel /pedal input. What someone here would probably call a monkey boy. Smooth drivers wont win in no TC situations, monkey boys like MS will and did (proven in 94/95/96 and the inferior ferraris) and also in that jordan in spa.

[Saribro]

and talking about the telemetry, i remember seeing something comparing michael to his teammate at the time, johnny herbert. the difference was astonishing.

I'm assuming it's this bit:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ryq7kzZyDg0
It's pretty interesting, not just in pure data, but also in how telemetry can show a lot of things you can't see just watching the car.

[jddh1]

and talking about the telemetry, i remember seeing something comparing michael to his teammate at the time, johnny herbert. the difference was astonishing.

I'm assuming it's this bit:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ryq7kzZyDg0
It's pretty interesting, not just in pure data, but also in how telemetry can show a lot of things you can't see just watching the car.

LOL, that link has been in my YouTube Favs for quite a long time now. I love that clip. And Damon Hill does a pretty good interview without taking sides. Nice gentleman.