The Japanese Way....failing?

[Rob W]

Honda has been steadily progressing....

...Their situation is very similar to Renault, we shall see how each of those teams react and bring their performance back up.

I was going to mention Renault. They took over a team which was doing OK and, although they did have the transition years and the benefit of Flavio's experience (especially with Supertec), they made a pretty good job with the team.

I sort of agree in some way with the comments about the Japanese way. I lived in Japan for 18 months and would often bang my head against the wall at the mindset of co-workers at times. They did their thing well but when situations changed it was very hard to sit down and say "OK, lets think of another way of doing this.." They'd generally be intent on doing things as per normal even though they were up against more forward-thinking competition.

Obviously Honda and Toyota can make cars - great cars. But without the time constraints and week-to-week competition which F1 has year-round perhaps are more easily flustered or something... who knows?

Rob W

[Carlos]

DaveKillens - Thanks for the reminder about Hailwood and those Girling shocks - I remember it from a column in Cycle World - and it brings something to mind - Japanese seem mired in protocol - but that moment of awakening - of sudden insight upon example - is a part of Zen instruction - something a Zen Master would use to startle a young student into progress - Hailwood certainly did just that - The Japanese are often very open and relieved to find a leader to step up and provide a breakthrough. The Japanese follow 2 paths - brilliant innovation or total conservatism - I think as the new rules that have been discussed for the future of F1 are introduced for chassis, engine and aero - we will see that Honda and Toyota may abandon a conservative approach and make some startling evolutions in design - as a personal example - I visited an auction of classic Japanese wood block prints with Ms Yoshida - she is regarded as an innovator of the art - we were bidding on examples of her Grandfather's work - a Master in the old tradition - she was constantly out bid by a collector - after the auction I introduced them to each other - we were invited to visit the collector's home - she brought her portfolio of modern prints - after admiring his collection of her Grandfathers prints and her modern work for an hour or so - I became impatient and settled matters by directly asking if he would represent her in the USA - something she wanted but had trouble voicing - a startling intervention on my part - perhaps a social Zen moment. I also functioned as an escort/bodyguard for the curator of a prominent Japanese museum - but that's another story

[Ray]

I lived in Japan for the better part of 13 months, and I must say they are VERY 'rigid' in their ways. They don't like to voice things that would possibly embarrass them. They don't like to lose 'face'. So if they have something that is going to cause them to lose face in admitting it, they won't. Which is not always a bad thing. But it can lead to trouble down the road. They are also by nature, like Carlos mentioned, very conservative peoples. Very quiet, very standoffish sometimes. So I think that is their downfall, they have too much pride when it comes to making mistakes.

As an aside, I enjoyed the time there very much. I'm not saying these things because I don't like them, just making an observation.

[West]

I think only tf1 can honestly answer what is the "Japanese way" when it comes to F1 design. But he's rarely on here, and I doubt he would say anything about how the company is ran.

They should have just stuck w/ Gascoyne after 2005, as far as I can tell.

[ConsFW]

On thread:

Perhaps Toyota and Honda are not that bad. Maybe Ferrari and McLaren are extremely good this year and were fortunate in the "musical chairs" game that Schumacher retirement unleashed.

Anyway, could you (sigh...) provide some figures about why you think Toyota and Honda are not advancing? Yes, japanese work in teams but also the other manufacturers... I bet meetings are not an Eastern invention! What happens to Williams? Too many meetings? Toyota's engines converted them to the "japanese way"? Or perhaps germans at BMW work each one separated from the others, without discipline, hanging around in hawaian shirts? I think is normal to expect variability in team performance: I doubt very much it depends mainly on national traits.

Finally, talking about "european love for individuality", that (I'm sorry if wrong) the thread seems to imply, the only guy in recent history that dared to invent, fund, construct cars from nothing, get drivers, mechanichs, build a factory and FIA permission in a few months is Aguri Suzuki. Last time I checked, this remarkable individual was japanese... How many of us are so daring, individualistic and brave as to accomplish that? It sounds very "samurai-ish" to me...

Don't give me the "Spyker did the same" reply : they did it, in part, because FIA wanted new teams and they have been racing for ages.

Well reasoned and logical post, Ciro!

People conveniently fail to recognize Aguri Suzuki who is Japanese and who is therefore obviously doing things the "Japanese Way" and yet is doing quite well considering the circumstances. While Honda and Toyota are struggling, Super Aguri have been making rapid progress with limited resources. Despite this people will readily take Honda and Toyota’s struggles to make blanket generalizations about the “Japanese Way,” even when there is a blaring counter-example in Super Aguri.

The American auto industry is struggling against the Japanese car makers. Does this mean it is a problem with the "American Way" of doing things? It is interesting how when Ferrari were dominant and both Mclaren and Williams were struggling, nobody speculated about the failure of the "British Way." Perhaps we should also attribute Ferrari’s success to the “Italian Way” and Spyker’s struggles as issues with the “Dutch Way” of doing things?

Has anyone paid attention to MotoGP (the two-wheeled F1)? The MotoGP/500cc championship has been won by Japanese teams every single year since 1974. Honda in particular seem to be doing pretty well in MotoGP, applying this so-called "Japanese Way" successfully to eight championships in the past ten years.

Perhaps the issue is more complex than nationality; perhaps it has little to do with nationality at all. Unfortunately, people will continue to make these kinds of superficial, blanket generalizations because it is a far easier alternative to thinking critically on a case-by-case basis.

[checkered]

The way things have gone

lately, I'm beginning to suspect that Honda's flagship team is just a smokescreen for their real effort, the SA. Not seriously, but anyway. This season, Toyota have been flying under the radar a bit, but I believe they actually have a decent car on their hands as we speak.

Toyota and Honda have excelled in production efficiency and quality control and I think Toyota will soon overtake GM as the largest car manufacturer. Should they manage to transfer even half of that prowess, in broad and relative terms, into their F1 operations, the sport could end up being quite a dull procession of Japanese victories for the foreseeable future. What comes to Japanese culture, I guess they have their weak and strong points, as everyone does. Bernie certainly seems to see an Asian future for F1 and he's not known for a lack of farsightedness. Over half of all the races will soon be held outside Europe.

Coming back to Aguri, Daniele Audetto is planning for the team's first win in 2008 already. Draw an extrapolation of their performance this far and suddenly the prospect might not seem that impossible at all. Certainly very few people have ended up winning anything in f1 by following conventions. If you want to follow Audetto's rationale:

http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/news/2007/04/ ... _for_2008/

[wazojugs]

toyota and honda will start to excel and move up the grid when they start to employ top class drivers instead of journeymen.

Simply as that!