Massa can't passa

[G-Rock]

I've said this two years ago. Ferrari's decision to keep Massa was either a wrong one or he was hired to be a No 2 driver from the start.

His overtaking is terrible and yesterday was a another example of that. He can win a race from pole but anything less and he's useless.

Ferrari would have been better off with Bourdais or Alonso but noooo...

[Ray]

I've been saying that since they hired him too!! He's crap if he doesn't start from pole. Only Alonso and Raikkonen have shown they can start from a few cars back and still win with authority. He's a good no. 2, but not a no. 1. Then again, I have no room to talk about driver skill!

[bettonracing]

I must admit I've never really been impressed by him (Massa) but I've held back on my criticisms due to his track record (which in reality rivals some of the greats). However, after his unforced error in the 1st corner yesterday at Melbourne, followed by his even more unimpressive drive until his retirement, I was left a little more 'soured'.

I say give him the boot and go for Vettel. I'd feel somewhat comforted calling him "stupid rookie!" when he makes mistakes.

Regards,

Kurt

[Conceptual]

I must admit I've never really been impressed by him (Massa) but I've held back on my criticisms due to his track record (which in reality rivals some of the greats). However, after his unforced error in the 1st corner yesterday at Melbourne, followed by his even more unimpressive drive until his retirement, I was left a little more 'soured'.

I say give him the boot and go for Vettel. I'd feel somewhat comforted calling him "stupid rookie!" when he makes mistakes.

Regards,

Kurt

Vettel > Massa^2

[AeroGT3]

Massa is great at turning fast laps but sucks at racing. Great test driver; poor racer.

[Ratatouille]

The same arguments you've been stating against Massa could be stated twice on Kimi Raikkonen. He also screwed up big time, and I don't see a thread yet stating how much Kimi sucks at overtaking, or let alone keeping his car off the grass while chasing Timo Glock.

What I mean is that Massa is not as bad as some of you might think. Australia always delivers strange results because it's not a permanent circuit and the grip levels tend to be quite low. Let's not get carried away with just one race gone by.

On the other hand, I don't think the F2008 is the great car everyone seems to believe it is. As fast as it may be, I think its driveability could be its weak spot.

My 2 cents.

[Ray]

The same arguments you've been stating against Massa could be stated twice on Kimi Raikkonen. He also screwed up big time, and I don't see a thread yet stating how much Kimi sucks at overtaking, or let alone keeping his car off the grass while chasing Timo Glock.

What I mean is that Massa is not as bad as some of you might think. Australia always delivers strange results because it's not a permanent circuit and the grip levels tend to be quite low. Let's not get carried away with just one race gone by.

On the other hand, I don't think the F2008 is the great car everyone seems to believe it is. As fast as it may be, I think its driveability could be its weak spot.

My 2 cents.

Name one race Massa has won from other than on pole. You can't. He has not proven he has the ability to win by racing his way to a win. Kimi has proven that many times over. He has the ability and the reputation that with a reliable, and not necessarily fast, car he will win. Just like Fernando. You give them a fast car and they will deliver without fail. Kimi has more wins, and a WDC if you haven't noticed. They are not in the same league. Not even remotely. You're comparing one massively bad race for Kimi against Massa who has made critical mistakes frequently. And under pressure, which Kimi is not famous for.

[Gecko]

Vettel > Massa^2

That isn't saying much, is Massa smaller than one

I don't think Massa's worst moment was colliding with Coulthard, at first it seemed reckless to me, but after reviewing the footage DC should have yielded the inside line, Massa was far enough alongside and for a long enough time. What Massa did wrong was simply spinning on his own in T1, this is what ruined his and Ferrari's chances.

Now, don't even get me started on Kimi

[dumrick]

I don't think Massa's worst moment was colliding with Coulthard, at first it seemed reckless to me, but after reviewing the footage DC should have yielded the inside line, Massa was far enough alongside and for a long enough time.

This weekend I officially became senile and stopped understanding the rules of the sport. Imagine I thought that one had to be at least alongside other driver to earn the line! Now I'm deeply confused, with all the comments and reactions I watched and read about this incident.

I watched a racing driver in portuguese TV saying it was OK, because Massa had "at least half a car alongside Coulthard".

Massa says that, if you are in the inside, you earn the line:

I was on the inside of the corner. I have done nothing wrong!

Massa rammed Couthard's sidepod and the relative motion of both cars made Coulthard's rear tyre to jump Massa's front tyre (that's what caused Couthard's damage). I even remember Montoya being imolated in this forum by a similar move in Canada (2006, was it?). I fail to understand what can take any responsability away from Massa. Is it just half a car alongside suddently the rule? Is it that a red car can ram another anytime? Where's the objective rule about what's acceptable?

[joseff]

His overtaking is terrible and yesterday was a another example of that. He can win a race from pole but anything less and he's useless.

...is great at turning fast laps but sucks at racing. Great test driver; poor racer.

He has not proven he has the ability to win by racing his way to a win. Kimi has proven that many times over.

Excuse me, is this thread about Ralf Schumacher?

[donskar]

Ray, you might not have meant to be making a general statement, but I think you did:

Only Alonso and Raikkonen have shown they can start from a few cars back and still win with authority

F1 is becoming (has become?) a series of events (the terms "races" does not seem to fit very well) whose winner must start from the front row, preferably the pole.

Anyone want to list all the F1 events of the past few years where the winner started from pole and won after PASSING NO ONE ON THE ROAD? If faulty memory serves, the number of such events will be quite depressingly large.

[Belatti]

F1 is becoming (has become?) a series of events (the terms "races" does not seem to fit very well) whose winner must start from the front row, preferably the pole.

Anyone want to list all the F1 events of the past few years where the winner started from pole and won after PASSING NO ONE ON THE ROAD? If faulty memory serves, the number of such events will be quite depressingly large.

Then imagine how good would Senna did if Tamburello wasn´t there...
There is a strategy he and many other great drivers used, called: demoralizing rivals.
1. Make a Pole
2. Push really hard in the first stint to make a gap that any rival would say: "I can´t catch him"
3. Control pace the rest of the race.
4. Drink the Champagne

Unfortunately, this is a PaceCar age and thats not as easy as it used to be for talented drivers with good cars.

[Ray]

Ray, you might not have meant to be making a general statement, but I think you did:

Only Alonso and Raikkonen have shown they can start from a few cars back and still win with authority

F1 is becoming (has become?) a series of events (the terms "races" does not seem to fit very well) whose winner must start from the front row, preferably the pole.

Anyone want to list all the F1 events of the past few years where the winner started from pole and won after PASSING NO ONE ON THE ROAD? If faulty memory serves, the number of such events will be quite depressingly large.

Out of the six races Kimi won last year, and the four of Fernando, how many were from pole? Of the wins between Massa and Lewis how many were from pole?

[Spencifer_Murphy]

Good point Ray, although I think (i would though wouldn't I? lol) that its being a little bit harsh on Lewis.

Granted his wins have come from pole, two of them though (Canada 2007, Australia 2008) he had to deal with his lead being erroded by safety cars on four, and then three, occasions. Winning from Pole isn't always an easy task of simply running and hiding. More importantly though, I think Lewis has proved time and time again that unlike Massa he CAN overtake, and he CAN battle it out on the track.

I think though he has lacked the restraint sometimes to know when to stop, hopefully with a year under his belt he'd have learnt that, maybe if he can marry that to his wheel-to-wheel ability he'll prove that he CAN win races from other than pole.

Basically I'm saying - you're right that both haven't won many (any?) races from other than pole, yes this can be seen as a fault or lacking on their part - but maybe Lewis is better than Massa.

Just my humble opinion on the matter.

[donskar]

Belatti, yes, Senna was great at demoralizing the opposition, so was M Schumacher and Jimmy Clark (I go back a ways . . .) Unfortunately, there are a number of ramifications OFF the track:
FANS can become demoralized or jaded
Domination leads to polarization. All of us recognize that a sizable group disliked Schumacher. Some of us remember that a group of F1 fans had a VERY strong dislike for Senna

On Massa, he IS the unofficial #2 at Ferrari - does anyone really doubt it? And if you accept that premise, you might agree he is one of the most successful #2s out there.

I am a little ticked off at this sort of "journalism":

Ferrari driver Felipe Massa refuses to acknowledge that he was to blame for the collision with Red Bull's David Coulthard.

Emphasis added.

The writer/editor could well be accused of biase there, no?