Someone to buy Toro Rosso ?

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
User avatar
WhiteBlue
92
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Someone to buy Toro Rosso ?

Post

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns20358.html

It sounds a bit strange that Fiat would run a second F1 team. It is common knowledge that they probably would have to spend at least 100 mil $$ a year doing that. Are Fiat financially strong enough for such an agressive strategy?

Would Gerhard Berger remain an owner in such a scheme? It sounds unlikely if the rumors of Nicolas Todt being involved are true.

There seem to be a lot of open questions and very little hard facts. My impression is that Gerhard will fight for his team to continue under his ownweship and that Mateschitz has given him two years to find a complimentary owner who wants to spend serious money on a team.

A serious automotive partner would be very good for STR but probably not at the price of ownership conflicts.

It will be interesting to see how this develops.
Last edited by WhiteBlue on 10 Jun 2008, 23:05, edited 1 time in total.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

zac510
zac510
22
Joined: 24 Jan 2006, 12:58

Re: Lancia to buy Toro Rosso ?

Post

They're probably the last automotive manufacturer to be 'linked' with F1 via press speculation.
No good turn goes unpunished.

John Stitch
John Stitch
0
Joined: 22 Apr 2008, 16:18

Re: Lancia to buy Toro Rosso ?

Post

The idea of Toad (N) buying TR has been floated before.

It is a fairly low cost way of Ferrari getting a second team.

Seems to me that Ferarri and Renault are challenging for a monopoly if the upper echelons of motorsport.

Renault have Renault, Red Bull and GP2.

Ferrari have Ferrari, TR, (FI) and A1GP.

User avatar
checkered
0
Joined: 02 Mar 2007, 14:32

Re: Lancia to buy Toro Rosso ?

Post

Perhaps, I guess it's

just as well. FIAT has been reviving and expanding different brands recently, take Maserati's recent succes for example. Lancia certainly hasn't been too visible lately, but I'm wondering whether their current product range is the most suitable one. I don't know, possibly there's something in the pipeline.

Anyway, the track record of Ferrari customer engines isn't all that great. That could change if an actual FIAT brand got to use them. John Stich's FIAT (Ferrari) - Renault comparison is interesting. I'm sure there are similar parallels to be drawn through the field.

Force India could well fit into the scheme of things as well. Tata and Fiat To Invest Billions in India, edmunds.com It'd certainly make for a curious arrangement if TATA started to manufacture Formula One engines to Ferrari template under the Jaguar label ... if going off on a tangent is allowed.

We'll see. In any case FIAT (Ferrari) will see to it that F1 has to rely on them in various ways. Making sure that the field remains 10 teams strong is one effective way of doing just that. In time, India will also sport a feeder series. No harm in making inroads in that direction as well.
"In theory there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is." - Yogi Berra

modbaraban
modbaraban
0
Joined: 05 Apr 2007, 17:44
Location: Kyiv, Ukraine

Re: Lancia to buy Toro Rosso ?

Post

When I look at recent Lancia cars I'd rather believe that FIAT themselves would enter F1, LMS and English Football Premier League as well rather than current Lancia to enter any sort of racing. Their market niche is small luxury inattractive cars that look quite MPV-ish and are not enormously popular outside Italy. Even when they revived the legendary Delta *ehem*.... the new one has nothing more to it but a badge and looks 'challenging' according to FifthGear :)
Honestly, if FIAT is going to expand into F1, why not Maserati, Alfa, Abarth for toad'ssake!?
John Stitch wrote:The idea of Toad...
:) nice typo

User avatar
WhiteBlue
92
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: Lancia to buy Toro Rosso ?

Post

yeah, Lancias look plain ugly (thesis)
Image
reminds me of this
Image
Ford designed this monstrosity to compete with BMW and Audi. it was so ugly that it killed the line
the new delta is marginally better but way to go
even F1 will not sell those cars
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

JamesW
JamesW
0
Joined: 11 Sep 2007, 11:58

Re: Lancia to buy Toro Rosso ?

Post

That's the first time I've seen a picture of the Delta, and I too was instantly reminded of Ford's ugly frog car. It's enough to give you nightmares! And to think it shares its name with this:

Image

User avatar
WhiteBlue
92
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: Lancia to buy Toro Rosso ?

Post

according to Gerhard Berger the rumor is just that, rumor!
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

modbaraban
modbaraban
0
Joined: 05 Apr 2007, 17:44
Location: Kyiv, Ukraine

Re: Lancia to buy Toro Rosso ?

Post

That horror above is named Thesis.
Delta is just a bit better.
Image

But why Delta anyway? Why not call it Pubica or something like that... :roll:

User avatar
WhiteBlue
92
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: Someone to buy Toro Rosso ?

Post

sorry for changing the title but I guess it is more appropriate now.
JUNE 10, 2008
Toro Rosso - the Ultimate solution?
There are reports that the British Formula 3 team Ultimate Motorsport is negotiating to buy a shareholding in Scuderia Toro Rosso, with funding for the project coming from the Angolan oil company Sonangol. Ultimate was formed in 2006 by Barry Walsh, a former racer. He had raced with Bertrand Decoster, the boss of Mygale, back in Formula Ford days and the two agreed that the new team would run with Mygale F3 cars in 2007. The team has just scored its first British F3 victory, thanks to the efforts of Michael Devaney at Snetterton last weekend. The team also runs Ricardo Teixeira, who is funded by Sonangol.

There is no doubt that Sonangol can afford an F1 programme. It is the company that manages all of Angola's oil and gas production. The former Portuguese colony is the largest oil producer in sub-Saharan Africa after Nigeria, but for years the profits from oil were used to pay for a disastrous civil war. This ended in 2002 and since then the country has been rebuilding but still replies heavily on oil with around 85% of all government revenue coming from oil. Much of the money in recent years has been spent on repairing the country's infrastructure but there are plans for new industries, notably the tourist trade.

With the price of oil now booming the Angolans have more money than ever to invest in new schemes. It is often thought that there is a connection between Ricardo Teixeira and A1GP boss Tony, who has been active in Angola over the years, but it is a very common Portuguese name and in reality there is no link. Tony Teixeira was a potential buyer of Scuderia Toro Rosso last year but that idea seems to have failed because the team needed to become a constructor by 2010.

This is not going to be easy, but one can see that a deal between Ultimate and Toro Rosso might be attractive because of the link with Mygale.

The French company is ambitious and having built more than 500 racing cars, notably for Formula Ford, Formula Renault and Formula BMW, has now moved on to Formula 3. With the right investment and recruitment, Mygale might be a fast way for Scuderia Toro to build its cars. The company is based in Magny-Cours and uses the RUAG windtunnel at Emmen, in Switzerland, which was regularly used by Sauber before it built its own facility at Hinwil. Mygale is currently extending its factory, doubling its surface area. The firm has also used the Aero Concepts Engineering (ACE) wind tunnel at Magny Cours (the former Prost facility). A deal involving Mygale would fulfil the ambitions of all concerned and if the money is available, it should be considered a serious possibility. It would almost certainly have to be for 2010 as it is too late to try to build an F1 car from scratch for 2009, but Red Bull has said that its goal was to sell the team by the end of 2009.
so the newest suitor for STR is Ultimate using Angolan oil money.

that sounds a little better than the Lancia rumor but still I would ask a few questions.

why would Ultimate be any better than Minardi/Toro Rosso?

what would Ultimate as an owner do better than as a contractor? Gerhard could hire all their facilities instead of letting them buy the company.

why would Sonangol want to deal with Ultimate and not with STR directly?

how would Ultimate stop STR to get Sonangol sponsor STR and get equity in return?
Ultimate in talks to buy into Toro Rosso F1 team
Tue Jun 10, 2008 6:28pm BST Email | Print | Share| Single Page| Recommend (0) [-] Text [+] LONDON (Reuters) - British Formula Three competitors Ultimate Motorsport said on Tuesday they were in talks to buy a stake in the Toro Rosso Formula One team.

"We are in negotiations so I can't reveal too much about it until everything is final," Ultimate team principal Barry Walsh, whose team are backed by Angolan state oil company Sonangol, told the autosport.com Web site (http://www.autosport.com).

"We always set out with Formula One as the target," he said. "I would only have got involved in the project in the first place if I was confident we could take it all the way to F1, that is the aim."

"If our plans go the right way, I'd like to think we could be on the grid for 2009."

Ferrari-powered Toro Rosso, formerly Minardi, are co-owned by Red Bull energy drink billionaire Dietrich Mateschitz and fellow-Austrian former grand prix driver Gerhard Berger.

There was no immediate comment from Red Bull.

Mateschitz said in March that Red Bull would sell their stake before 2010 because of an expected change in the Formula One regulations requiring all teams to design and build their own cars.

The current Toro Rosso and Red Bull Racing cars are both designed by Red Bull technology under the guidance of former McLaren technical director Adrian Newey.

Ultimate have Angolan Ricardo Teixeira as one of their F3 drivers alongside Ireland's Michael Devaney, a double winner at Snetterton last weekend.

The F3 team use a Mercedes-powered car built by the Magny-Cours based French firm Mygale.

Walsh is a former racing driver turned property developer while racing director Jonny Ostrowski was previously a McLaren Formula One race mechanic.

(Reporting by Alan Baldwin; Editing by John Mehaffey)
so this is in reality Mercs B-team.

last time they tried with ProDrive Williams shot them down and highjacked their sponsors. Bagur is now the main sponsor at Williams. watch out what will happen in this case. :wink:
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

Conceptual
Conceptual
0
Joined: 15 Nov 2007, 03:33

Re: Someone to buy Toro Rosso ?

Post

I still think that Richard Branson of Virgin should buy STR. With his close relationship to Scaled Composites, I think that there could be a serious claim to be able to design and manufacture their own cars. I believe that SC has all of the necessary infrastructure, as well as some top level engineering talent.

Who knows, a US built F1 car on the grid in 2010 might have some serious impact, and since Virgin is a global name, I'm sure that the exposure in F1 would be very welcome.

And lets not forget that Branson would probably do it simply for the thrill of test driving the car!

Chris

donskar
donskar
2
Joined: 03 Feb 2007, 16:41
Location: Cardboard box, end of Boulevard of Broken Dreams

Re: Someone to buy Toro Rosso ?

Post

This whole thing smacks of the worst of the "garagists" that Enzo hated in the 1970's. All very tenuous.

Mygale will graduate from infrequent success to F1 in one bound?

M-B will ally itself with a nation with a very negative recent PR face?

A moderately successful F3 team will graduate directly to F1?

Great fun, and a part of me hopes it happens, but there are a whole lot of loose threads in this one!
Enzo Ferrari was a great man. But he was not a good man. -- Phil Hill

User avatar
WhiteBlue
92
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: Someone to buy Toro Rosso ?

Post

Conceptual wrote:I still think that Richard Branson of Virgin should buy STR. With his close relationship to Scaled Composites, I think that there could be a serious claim to be able to design and manufacture their own cars. I believe that SC has all of the necessary infrastructure, as well as some top level engineering talent.

Who knows, a US built F1 car on the grid in 2010 might have some serious impact, and since Virgin is a global name, I'm sure that the exposure in F1 would be very welcome.

And lets not forget that Branson would probably do it simply for the thrill of test driving the car!

Chris

thats an interesting idea. isn't Branson fascinated by flyingt? perhaps auto racing isn't rocking his boat. but if someone could hook him it would be a cool partner for Gerhard. he certainly has no interest in running the team and has the global brand to make his investment pay back. scaled composites would be a tremendous asset!!
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

Conceptual
Conceptual
0
Joined: 15 Nov 2007, 03:33

Re: Someone to buy Toro Rosso ?

Post

WhiteBlue wrote:
Conceptual wrote:I still think that Richard Branson of Virgin should buy STR. With his close relationship to Scaled Composites, I think that there could be a serious claim to be able to design and manufacture their own cars. I believe that SC has all of the necessary infrastructure, as well as some top level engineering talent.

Who knows, a US built F1 car on the grid in 2010 might have some serious impact, and since Virgin is a global name, I'm sure that the exposure in F1 would be very welcome.

And lets not forget that Branson would probably do it simply for the thrill of test driving the car!

Chris

thats an interesting idea. isn't Branson fascinated by flyingt? perhaps auto racing isn't rocking his boat. but if someone could hook him it would be a cool partner for Gerhard. he certainly has no interest in running the team and has the global brand to make his investment pay back. scaled composites would be a tremendous asset!!
My thoughts exactly.

And it would bring a US manufacturer into F1.

And I think that Branson is interested in anything that could kill him... He is an adrenaline junkie, and I can't think of a single thing that could get the heart pumping more than driving an F1 car on its limit.

Man, even rFactor gets your heart pounding. I could only imagine what the real thing is like!

Chris

User avatar
WhiteBlue
92
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: Someone to buy Toro Rosso ?

Post

Berger denies latest Toro Rosso sale talks
Wednesday 11 June at 22:15 : Reports that Toro Rosso is in advanced negotiations with a British formula three team about selling Dietrich Mateschitz's 50 per cent stake have been denied.

It emerged this week that Northamptonshire based Ultimate Motorsport is eying moving up to formula one with the backing of the Angolian oil company Sonangol.

But Toro Rosso team boss Gerhard Berger, who owns the other half of the Red Bull-branded outfit, told the Austrian news agency APA that he has "never heard" of Ultimate.

He therefore added that he has "never spoken" with anyone at the Mercedes-powered F3 team, which contradicts Ultimate boss Barry Walsh's confirmation to the British specialist media about Toro Rosso talks.

The website motorline.cc also quotes a Red Bull spokeswoman as similarly denying the story.
we had not long to wait for this one
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)