Technical Regulations for 2009-2015

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Post Tue Jul 08, 2008 4:02 pm

Ogami musashi wrote:Fastest lap times in race mean nothing as they are done in different conditions.

If you take qualifying times, you see 1:13.698 in 2004 with a full stint fuel load and 1:15.024 in 2008 in Q2 that is light

that's why i say 4 seconds. If 2004 cars did qualify on light fuel they would just be in that range as on some tracks with their fuel loads they're already 2 seconds ahead.


The FIA wanted to slow down the cars for safety yes.


But what about 2008 Q3 times then? They run with a first stint of fuel -- 1:16.449. I think 3 seconds is a reasonable amount but 4 seconds might be pushing it a bit far.
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Post Tue Jul 08, 2008 4:04 pm

But what about 2008 Q3 times then? They run with a first stint of fuel -- 1:16.449. I think 3 seconds is a reasonable amount but 4 seconds might be pushing it a bit far.


Sold for 3 seconds!

I meant, we have a large margin..the 2004 cars were just hell faster.
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Post Tue Jul 08, 2008 4:07 pm

Ogami musashi wrote:
But what about 2008 Q3 times then? They run with a first stint of fuel -- 1:16.449. I think 3 seconds is a reasonable amount but 4 seconds might be pushing it a bit far.


Sold for 3 seconds!

I meant, we have a large margin..the 2004 cars were just hell faster.


Oh most definetely. I wonder how much of that was actually engine performance and how much was aero/tyres. I wish they'd put a current V8 in a 2004 chassis to find out 8)
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Post Tue Jul 08, 2008 4:16 pm

IRCC they did the opposite, putting a V10 into a F248...or...mm i don't recall, but an interim ferrari in 2005/2006 topped the times almost everytime and she was hybrid but i don't recall if it was a F2005 with V8 or a F248 with a V10.


Edit: it was a F2004M with a V8 engine.
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Post Tue Jul 08, 2008 4:29 pm

Ogami musashi wrote:IRCC they did the opposite, putting a V10 into a F248...or...mm i don't recall, but an interim ferrari in 2005/2006 topped the times almost everytime and she was hybrid but i don't recall if it was a F2005 with V8 or a F248 with a V10.


Edit: it was a F2004M with a V8 engine.


Yeah, I knew Ferrari had done so but the F2004M is the 2005-spec car so the aero grip is much reduced from 2004. I can't see the V8 making much more than a second difference in the same car. I mean, they are still ridiculously powerful engines.

Edit: I was reading about the introduction of the V8s and it turns out they were expecting a 2-3 drop in laptimes. So they do make a significant difference.
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Post Tue Jul 08, 2008 10:29 pm

Conceptual:

Ogami, what do you think of that article where Honda said the 2009 regs produce 75% of todays downforce instead of the 50% target, coupled with the return of slicks? Will the grip actually INCREASE with the 30% increase of tyre surface?

Chris


The first point on the downforce loss. Since April last year, when the OWG started the tests for 2009 regs it was clear for everbody (both OWG and FIA) that the planned loss would not be here. Nobody believed 50% of downforce would be cut.

The cleverness in the OWG works are that they took the problem at the root by diminishing turbulence, thus, taking into account that teams would claw back downforce they hope that their changes will still lead to overtaking friendly.

One very obscure fact and the reason why rules are still not fixed is that one task of the OWG was to prevent the teams to claw back the downforce over the years..
Time will tell.


Max mosley on his side was not naive neither, and that why he warned that if cornering speed "do rocket up..then slicks will be banned".

As for the 25%...let's wait that the full 2009 car (i mean the real 2009) car comes up.

We also have to ponder the 25%...25% of what? of an honda downforce level?? at which speed?? which set up?

All i know is that nobody really believe cars will be slower.


The second point are the tyres.

The slicks offer more surface yet, but as it has been said the grip increase is not linear with surface, however one has to understand that the slicks do not offer only larger surface but a better structure as well which translate into a very good Coef of friction.

Very large improvement can be seen. I have talked with a michelin competition engineer and for him improving from 2.1 (the max Friction coef recorded for a michelin F1 grooved tyre) to a nearly 2.6 for the slicks is totally possible.

There's a limit however, it is the nimbleness of cars, as you increase the surface and make the tyre softer and softer the car starts to react slower.

So until Friction coefficient is increased solely by structure there'll be a limit and downforce will be necessary.

That said to me, next year tyre grip improvement will be on the variation. During michelin F1 era, typical value of friction coefficient ranged from 1.4 to 2.1 during a race (the 1.4 being the one with the highest downforce created).

Next year with less downforce, the tyres will be less loaded so some corners could be taken faster because the overall grip (tyre grip*(weight+downforce)) may be higher.

Now if the downforce is not cut enough....That's why we need to wait and see what happens.

Remember in testing the cars with 2008 downforce and slicks were only 1 second faster than the 2009 trimmed cars with slicks (themselves being around 1 second faster than grooved+2008 downforce).

The reason is that too much downforce decreases the tyre grip very much.

As for drag, someone has asked, I think the total drag will be lower than this year so yes top speeds will be higher.
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Post Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:40 pm

Ogami musashi wrote:
All i know is that nobody really believe cars will be slower.



Everyone does. On a track like Monaco it won't make a huge difference, but on Spa or Silverstone lozing all that downforce in the highspeed corners is huge. It could easily mean 3-5 seconds a lap on these tracks...
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Post Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:51 pm

the stig wrote:
Ogami musashi wrote:
All i know is that nobody really believe cars will be slower.



Everyone does. On a track like Monaco it won't make a huge difference, but on Spa or Silverstone lozing all that downforce in the highspeed corners is huge. It could easily mean 3-5 seconds a lap on these tracks...


But that's only if the cars are actually at the 50% reduction...

As a general example:

2008 max grip = 1.8**x(600+2700) = 5940
2009 max grip = 2.5x(600+2000***)= 6500

** assuming the control tyres have this coefficient of grip
*** assuming 75% downforce of todays levels

If we do assume 50% downforce:

2.5x(600+1350) = 4875

So as you can see, it is completely depandant on how much downforce the teams can claw back.
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Post Wed Jul 09, 2008 9:59 am

The calculations are not relevant because they speak about straight line max downforce, which, even in a flat out corner, is not preserved due to yaw and crossflow.


A way to calculate the thing is to look at acceleration.

For example you know the max acceleration is 5G (this year, 4,8G) so take the weight of the car fuel (let's say mid stint) around 650


let's assume a grooved tyre with 1,7 of friction coefficient taking into account the load sensitivity (remember from empirical test, the friction coef used to range from 1,4 to 2.1 in 2006 for michelin sofest tyres).

The max grip is:

5*650=1,7*(650+downforce)
3250-(1,7*650)=1,7*downforce
1,7*dowforce=2145
Dowforce=2145/1,7=1261,7

So assuming at a given time under 5G's acceleration a tyre friction coefficient of 1,7 we have 1261,7 of downforce for a 2006 F1.

Now let's take the deal with 2009 specs by cutting that downforce in two an let's see if we end up with similar, lower or greater total grip.
Since we have half the downforce, let's assume the tyre load sensitivity is lower thus the resulting tyre friction coef is greater.

topping at 2,6 let's take a 2,5 value.

Grip=2,5*(650+(1261,7/2))
Grip=3202,2=4,92G

Here it is we have here about the same grip than before assuming the full 50% reduction in downforce.


That example was taken for a full 5G corner.
Actually they were faster at barcelona with a 3,87G corner and 3G cornering average.

The grip cruve for 2009 flattens with G's, so if at top acceleration we already have about the same grip, there's no reason we have the same of greater below, and a 3,87G's corner is a not a slow one (for instance at barcelona it is a 220km/h one).


So has you can see, the 5 seconds are unlikely, that's why nor the FIA nor the OWG (not the teams) believe they'll be that slower and many even think they'll have more grip.
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Post Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:35 am

Good point, and well put. You may well be right on some circuits where tyre grip matters more than the rest, but I'm stuggling to imagine the slicks will make a difference in corners like eau Rouge, where the grip is almost enitrely aero-generated...
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Post Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:54 am

Yes that's possible for some corners but remember that G's are the final indication, in this case, eau rouge is about 4,5G at the actual speeds, maybe next year, with a higher top speed the corner will be harder to take flat out;

In any way that's a good thing i think.

But let's wait and see what the real downforce cut is.
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Post Fri Jul 11, 2008 3:29 pm

I'd just like to thank everyone contributing to this thread and ask the moderators to remove [Central topic] from the name and make it a sticky instead. :wink:
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Post Sat Jul 12, 2008 1:34 pm

The Technical regulations are finally released!!

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/sport/regulati ... nship.aspx

(the sporting one also)
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Post Sat Jul 12, 2008 3:31 pm

On a quick glance the most important issue seems to be the copy appendix 5 regarding rule changes. So unless the current process of consultations yields any changes the majority voting will continue.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)
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Post Sat Jul 12, 2008 3:42 pm

Any change in FIA policy is meant for 2011. 2009 rules are pretty much created the same (except the bodywork rules, submitted by the OWG and the teams).

The new concord agreement is not signed and 2009 will in any case run under the extension of the previous one.
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