What About Ditching Pit To Car Radio????

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ESPImperium
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What About Ditching Pit To Car Radio????

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After seeing Ron Dennis telling Hekki to let Lewis thrugh today, what would be the advantage of ditching all radio systems, or just pit to car radio???

Let drivers let the team know something, yes, but no two way radio systems. Or just have a out right ban on all radio systems.

If the teams want to tell the drivers something, they should have to use the pit board, like MOTO GP, as Rossi, Stoner and Co seem to get allong just fine without radio systems.

Make the drivers use their mirrors, and their head more on the track i feel. And team mates should have to race each other, if theres a championship on the line, they should have to race each other.

Whats your take on it????

Scotracer
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Re: What About Ditching Pit To Car Radio????

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Trouble is with MotoGP that they do not have pitstop so strategy isn't as big a part as it is in F1. I just don't see how you could get team support for such a move and I feel it would be detrimental and cause more instances where luck, rather than skilled strategic moves would alter the outcome of a race.
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axle
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Re: What About Ditching Pit To Car Radio????

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ESPImperium wrote:After seeing Ron Dennis telling Hekki to let Lewis thrugh today
Got any proof of that?? Like a transcript of the convo?? Or just a wild guess by someone gutted his team didn't win??

If you were actually watching the button he was hovering over was "PIT WALL". If Heikki was on the pit wall and driving I'd cry foul but alas no.

Lewis and Heikki will have an un written rule between them to help the other out for the good of the team, because that's what TEAM mates do.
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Tom Castellani
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Re: What About Ditching Pit To Car Radio????

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Well I'm sure team orders came into play there, many people will of course criticise that but if they hadn't done so many would also call them a stupid team.

It was a logical move; one driver fighting for the championship with the pace to win the race, another with exactly half the championship points at that time who didn't have anywhere near the pace to improve.

If you want to talk about team orders don't forget that radios won't solve that, think back to Ferrari 1979. Gilles Villeneuve gave the Monza victory and the world championship to Jody Scheckter so that Ferrari could easily keep Williams at bay. That's why Villeneuve was so angry at Didier Pironi at Imola in 1982 for disobeying team orders and stealing the victory, after he'd been loyal himself in the past.

I know I'm rambling now but point in fact, this is nothing new. If a team sees an opportunity with or without the technology they have the right to take it. Same with BMW at Montreal... Quite frankly if the team can improve their game by using radios, so be it. F1 is a sport where efficiency is key and what's more, the radio is important for many safety reasons as well. Going without it would be a great disadvantage in lots of aspects.
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Miguel
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Re: What About Ditching Pit To Car Radio????

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The real issue is when a team order is no longer acceptable. Had this been the last lap, would it have been acceptable? Had this been ferrari, would it be acceptable? And finally, will McLaren keep their "no team orders here" stance?
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gcdugas
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Re: What About Ditching Pit To Car Radio????

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Safety! Teams routinely warn drivers of oil/crash debris seconds after incidents occur. Drivers need to be able to request wing adjustments, tire pressure changes etc.

Get over it, teams will always have their drivers work together whether you see evidence of it or not. If Lewis is on a three stopper and Heikki is on a two stopper, Heikki may "get the idea" (from a birdie) to drop his pace/change his mapping so Lewis can gap the Ferraris behind Heikki before his first stop. This imperceptible. How often have we heard engineers on the radio saying what engine map to adjust to? We think nothing of it.

Your Moto-GP analogy fails in that they don't have stops and passing is possible several times a lap so a faster bike will never be held up.

We don't need interference from customer engine teams. So far this hasn't been an issue. What we really don't need is three car teams. If STR or Force India fail, the rules mandate a 20 car field minimum.
Innovation over refinement is the prefered path to performance. -- Get rid of the dopey regs in F1

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Gary
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Re: What About Ditching Pit To Car Radio????

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Miguel wrote:The real issue is when a team order is no longer acceptable. Had this been the last lap, would it have been acceptable? Had this been ferrari, would it be acceptable? And finally, will McLaren keep their "no team orders here" stance?
You make a good point. The whole team order regulation is, surely, so very hard to adjudicate on in a sensible way. Let's for now assume that McLaren outright told Hekki to move aside. (I don't accept that this is the case but hang in there for now.) It would have been done because, presumably, Heikki and/or his car were manifestly slower at that time than Lewis and/or his car. And by virtue of Lewis being 'released' he was able, as we saw, to pass those in front and take the win. And equally manifestly, Heikki was unable to do that because he remained in 5th spot till the end.

The problem (with the team orders rule) comes when a car has a small problem or an incipient big problem that the team has seen via telemetry and it is slower than its team car behind. Clearly, if, say, its brakes are shot, letting the team mate through is a no brainer but where is the line to be drawn? What if, say, the leading car has a very minor, and not terminal problem... too much front wing for example. In that case, holding the second car back might result in competitors cruising up to the two team cars and getting by them.

Where's the cut-off point between okay and not okay?

Seems to me the whole reason for the team orders ruling stems from the not too pretty spectacle in the Styrian mountains 6 years ago! In that case, Ferrari had the race, and the season sewn up, just 5 races into a 17 race championship. The outrage, about which Michael seemed blissfully unaware on the podium, was about the cynicism surrounding the execution of the order to poor Rubens. Oh, and about the money those inclined to gamble on race results may have lost! :wink:

I attribute a quantum of common sense to Charlie Whiting and his band of helpers and I would be sure that they, like me, would see absolutely no reason to look askance at McLaren over the move at the Hockenheimring yesterday.

On the McLaren "No team orders" issue, I stand to be corrected but is that an accurate reflection of this team's long held position? Isn't it more accurate to say that they claim to provide each of their drivers with equal equipment and resources and to allow them to race each other? I'm no McLaren fan by the way but may I say that the team is made up of human beings (in some contrast to what their stainless steel corporate persona might suggest!) and they are capable, in small but telling ways, of 'loving' one driver more than the other, as David Coulthard found out.

That may be a less than wonderful characteristic, but team orders it ain't!

DaveKillens
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Re: What About Ditching Pit To Car Radio????

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Teammates have "Understandings" about what to do in most circumstances. Have you ever seen two cars of the same team take off from the start and cruise almost nose-to-tail most of the race? And during this time, put up impressive lap times. If you haven't ever seen that, then you haven't seen Michael Schumacher in his glory days with Reubens. They had an "understanding", that if they both cleared the pack, the trailing car would obediently follow, without any banzai-style moves against his teammate in an attempt to pass. because if you're driving defensive, you're not doing your best lap times.
And if a teammate who knows that his partner is quicker that day, and he comes out of the pits and latches onto your tail, do you really need someone in the pits to tell you the obvious, that you're holding him up?
Keep radios, they are a way to monitor if there are team orders. Otherwise, if radios are banned, who knows what weird symbology will be used to communicate orders to the drivers.
Racing should be decided on the track, not the court room.

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gcdugas
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Re: What About Ditching Pit To Car Radio????

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DaveKillens wrote:Keep radios, they are a way to monitor if there are team orders. Otherwise, if radios are banned, who knows what weird symbology will be used to communicate orders to the drivers.
Orders are going to happen. If you are that paranoid, then perhaps we could imagine that the team could use the radio to say "Have a clean fight fellas" which really means "Let Lewis by", or that Ron could wear an orange hat to signal for a pass and a black hat to signal holding station. There are a million ways to communicate a message. There are a million ways to mask a move. And smart gamblers will take this into account so I don't care about betting lines. Team orders will be here until the end of time.... radio or no radio. They are helpful for safety etc.
Innovation over refinement is the prefered path to performance. -- Get rid of the dopey regs in F1

ESPImperium
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Re: What About Ditching Pit To Car Radio????

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Sme of the comments are intresting, and have won me arround to keeping them, but it would be better if theese things happened;

1) Ditch engine mapping, have a standard fuel air mix and keep the diferential settings standard as well... Maybes have only 3 maps and mixes, one for dry tyres, one for inters and one for full wets.

2) Make it mandotory for all teams to use non encripted solutions for radios, making whats said free for all to hear.

Would those be viable???

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gcdugas
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Re: What About Ditching Pit To Car Radio????

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Perhaps we should run horses and chariots. Or lawnmower engines. What is it that you don't like? Was not Lewis much quicker? Did he not pass Massa, Nick, Nelson after he got by Heikki? For what reason should he be held up by his teammate? Because you don't like it? For what reason should F1 abandon technology with std. difs and only one map? Personally I think the std ECU. is an abomination. Dumbing down things because you don't like a something is antithetical to the spirit of F1 and in keeping with Max's goofy ideas. Should F1 become just another spec series? All you want to do in ban/limit/inhibit by decree. You are willing to embrace a false elixir for a non-offense unto the ruination of the sport. I tell you what... why don't you go down to your local track that races $6,500 "Legend Cars" with carburetors and no pit radio or difs and become a fan of that? You would like it more.

Team orders will always be there. The teams can always mask it. A missed shift here, run a corner wide there etc. You can signal it by radio, by pit board, by the color hat you wear, by a myriad of means. You can't wave a magic wand and eliminate it. It is a reality of life. Deal with it and if you still don't like it you can always root for local "Legend Cars".

And lastly let me stress again that Lewis passed three others in 5 laps or so after Heikki didn't resist the inevitable. We are not talking about Austria 2002 here.
Innovation over refinement is the prefered path to performance. -- Get rid of the dopey regs in F1

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FW17
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Re: What About Ditching Pit To Car Radio????

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Lot of chatter by Todt about driver coaching during the race, there was a talk of a ban last year but that came to nothing.

Do we really need radios for other than safety instructions?

The cars are so loaded with tech now that the driver should be able to control all aspects of the car without the need for the team telling him which button to press and dial to turn. All aspects of conservation should be totally to be in the drivers control and no one else.

Strategy too should be completely in the hands of the driver with communication just to check if the pit slot is open, gap to competitors should be totally his perception or should be just relayed to him at certain number of request.

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Emmcee
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Re: What About Ditching Pit To Car Radio????

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Awww no more "leave me alone i know what iam doing" or " a Caterham just passed me"
Real eyes realise real lies - Tupac Shakur.

Moxie
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Re: What About Ditching Pit To Car Radio????

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Rather than restrict communication between the pit and the driver, the pest way to prevent driver coaching is to restrict telemetry between the car and the pits. As far as directions to drivers telling them to let the teammate pass, or slow down to help the teammate build a gap, I think I disagree with most people in this forum. F1 is still a team sport, and I still value the rivalries between Ferrari, McLaren, Williams, and Lotus. If the future of F1 is to continue to be a team sport, then team orders, and cooperation between drivers should not be forbidden. Still I do believe that the skill of individual drivers does make the sport entertaining, and I believe that most of the information currently relayed to the drivers is excessive, and that they need to learn how to drive the car by the seat of their pants.

FJBH10
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Re: What About Ditching Pit To Car Radio????

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All-out ban, bring back pit-boards like in MotoGP etc.

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