Max Mosely wants action to "save F1"

[ben_watkins]

A fairly long interview [near 8mins] with Max Mosely by BBC Sport..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsp ... 657298.stm


For conspiracy therorists, what model of an F1 car does he have over his sholder!?!

[Scotracer]

As much as I hate to admit it, I agree with everything said in that interview. The drivetrain, whilst my biggest love in F1, is ridiculously priced for something that isn't all that more powerful than a GP2 engine or CART engine.

A single engine, as long as it's stupidly loud and ridiculously powerful, I don't care if they all have the same engine. If they remove those two aspects, F1 is dead to me. It's simple as that. I love F1 for the speed and noise, and to remove those would kill it.

[timbo]

I love F1 for the speed and noise, and to remove those would kill it.

Well, top-fuel dragsters are faster and noisier...
I wonder what makes F1 engines so costly? Any unobtainium material is ruled out, from technological standpoint F1 engine (apart from pneumatic valves) is not that different than say BMW M5 engine (actually with variable valve timing and inlet/exhaust geometry forbidden it is simpler). What is it R&D cost? Extra precision demand?

[majicmeow]

Take that M5 V10, lop off two cylinders, then halve the displacement, double the rev limiter and then add 200bhp. Then cut the weight down to less than half to ONLY 65kg. Then, try to do all that with no fancy gimmicks like variable valve timing, very limited oil supply, and the smallest possible package.

That's why they cost so much!

[majicmeow]

sorry, but I just fail to understand how Max and the FIA do not realize what the constant rule changes inforced by the FIA are doing.

I believe that the yearly rule changes are the biggest reason for most of a teams budget each year. Teams are given no workable amount of time to perfect anything to a point where the cost starts to decrease!

ayayay... At this rate I honestly hope that F1 just fails completely. At least that would open their eyes to the real situations...

just MHO...

[tarzoon]

A single engine, as long as it's stupidly loud and ridiculously powerful, I don't care if they all have the same engine. If they remove those two aspects, F1 is dead to me. It's simple as that. I love F1 for the speed and noise, and to remove those would kill it.

Actually, it may make some sense. I don't agree with a single engine, but if teams were allowed to build big (and powerful) engines with no electronic aids would require more from the pilots as they had to be softer on the throttle. It worked in motoGP. That with the new aero limitations would be good. Back to old school stuff, especially with all the post-Shummi talents around.

I like F1, but current restrictions and cost-cutting policies are making cars (and races) more boring. There's no way any team can come with something revolutionary and cars are getting uglier with those extra wings, fins, tails, cones, and whatever they come up next.

[timbo]

Take that M5 V10, lop off two cylinders, then halve the displacement, double the rev limiter and then add 200bhp. Then cut the weight down to less than half to ONLY 65kg. Then, try to do all that with no fancy gimmicks like variable valve timing, very limited oil supply, and the smallest possible package.

That's why they cost so much!

Well, but won't any M5 owner be pissed if its engine lasted only 900 km? And would it be pleased with 60-70 litres/100 km fuel consumption? And weight limit is 90 kg AFAIK.
There's no actual magic in F1 engine. Sure it would cost a lot when you push technology like that, but there's nothing extraterrestrial in there.
I asked WHAT actually makes it cost so much. Is it R&D? Materials? Production expenses? And since R&D cost are diminished and special materials forbidden, I wonder, what makes production expenses for F1 engine so high?

[Scotracer]

I too fail to see what exactly costs so much. You have material restrictions, fixed bore centres and many other components specified, you have no variable intakes/exhausts, you have no direct injection, you have no variable valve timing, you have no forced induction...you just have a small engine revving itself to pieces.

[tarzoon]

I too fail to see what exactly costs so much. You have material restrictions, fixed bore centres and many other components specified, you have no variable intakes/exhausts, you have no direct injection, you have no variable valve timing, you have no forced induction...you just have a small engine revving itself to pieces.

the cost of each bhp increases exponentially, especially with restrictions. If you make the engine with the same specs, you may be able to extract a few more bhps by improving manufacturing precision.

This is only my assumption of things

[Scotracer]

I too fail to see what exactly costs so much. You have material restrictions, fixed bore centres and many other components specified, you have no variable intakes/exhausts, you have no direct injection, you have no variable valve timing, you have no forced induction...you just have a small engine revving itself to pieces.

the cost of each bhp increases exponentially, especially with restrictions. If you make the engine with the same specs, you may be able to extract a few more bhps by improving manufacturing precision.

This is only my assumption of things

Indeed.

This is why I support a return to 3.5 V10s. They could rev limit them at say 13,000rpm or maybe even less and still return the same power as today but much, much more torque making them more exciting to watch.

[Conceptual]

Precision machining to the .000001in is purely dependant upon the accuracy of the cutting machines.

I imagine F1 teams spend just as much time designing and building ultra-precise machines(or sub them out for $$$), as they do developing their people and the design of "this years" chassis.

For the life of me, I cannot see why there is such tremendous expense for these engines, other than the fact that many parts are sub-contracted (Ferrari's conrod) to machine shops in the EU. Maybe if they started looking for American machine shops, with the exchange rate, they could seriously decrease their budget.

That is, if the current economic crisis wasnt destroying the Euro and USD right now...

[wesley123]

Mosley will ose them all, the only one who still trust the fia is ferrari.

Mosley wants to make the racing green with his kers, but he hasnt thought that all those energy that they save will be used then for those lights in the singapore gp.
So they dont gain anything from it.

They just have to change the engines.
Like a V4 BiTurbo Diesel powered. Limited to 10000RPM, that will take a loss in consumption and the amount of power will be the same or a little bit lower. Due to this changes the car can be uild more compact wich reduced drag.

[timbo]

From my understanding of things sub-contracting may only reduce costs. If it is cheaper to produce parts inhouse they are not bought from outsourcer.
I thing cost-cutting AND retaining of innovation image of F1 may be reached by emploing standart parts wisely. I think such parts might be pistons, crankshafts, maybe oil/fuel pumps, gearboxes, underbody and diffusors. Maybe some parts of suspension - like dampers and springs. Cost per unit would be reduced by mass-production. It also sets some control over development rate.

[Conceptual]

Mosley will ose them all, the only one who still trust the fia is ferrari.

Mosley wants to make the racing green with his kers, but he hasnt thought that all those energy that they save will be used then for those lights in the singapore gp.
So they dont gain anything from it.

They just have to change the engines.
Like a V4 BiTurbo Diesel powered. Limited to 10000RPM, that will take a loss in consumption and the amount of power will be the same or a little bit lower. Due to this changes the car can be uild more compact wich reduced drag.

Up that to 15k RPM (top end of spring valves), and lower the weight to 515kg. With the weight loss, KERS implementation and weight savings, the racing may get more exciting. I would imagine the 80HP boost from next years KERS would have more effect on overtaking with a 515kg car than the 605kg one!

OR they could implement a rule next year that kinda takes advantage of what the teams have already used, and that is running the current V8's next year on 4 cylinders at a time, but allowing 2BAR turbos. I dont know if it would make the engine last longer tho...

[wesley123]

Mosley will ose them all, the only one who still trust the fia is ferrari.

Mosley wants to make the racing green with his kers, but he hasnt thought that all those energy that they save will be used then for those lights in the singapore gp.
So they dont gain anything from it.

They just have to change the engines.
Like a V4 BiTurbo Diesel powered. Limited to 10000RPM, that will take a loss in consumption and the amount of power will be the same or a little bit lower. Due to this changes the car can be uild more compact wich reduced drag.

Up that to 15k RPM (top end of spring valves), and lower the weight to 515kg. With the weight loss, KERS implementation and weight savings, the racing may get more exciting. I would imagine the 80HP boost from next years KERS would have more effect on overtaking with a 515kg car than the 605kg one!

OR they could implement a rule next year that kinda takes advantage of what the teams have already used, and that is running the current V8's next year on 4 cylinders at a time, but allowing 2BAR turbos. I dont know if it would make the engine last longer tho...

Well making the cars lighter would be really cool and also good for engineers as the car will react more on air from the side.
I dont know either if it would make the engines more reliable but im sure it is possible.