Best Driver on the Brakes

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
User avatar
ISLAMATRON
0
Joined: 01 Oct 2008, 18:29

Best Driver on the Brakes

Post

I know this is F1Techinal but a big part of the car's performance lies in the hands of the drivers... with that in mind I'd like to open up a series of discussions on the drivers performance related to the cars they drive. Maybe we could have a third sub-section of the general section pertaining to the drivers. First... who is the best on the brakes? and how would we measure this? Does the FIA apex speed graphic help us determine this?

For example... We have seen Hamilton outbrake many drivers, but we have also seen him outbrake himself, not so much putting it in the gravel but clearly flat spotting his tires.

Who is the best F1 driver on the Brakes?

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
551
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: Best Driver on the Brakes

Post

Easy one!
🖐️✌️☝️👀👌✍️🐎🏆🙏

Giblet
Giblet
5
Joined: 19 Mar 2007, 01:47
Location: Canada

Re: Best Driver on the Brakes

Post

In my opinion, Lewis seems to have the best feel for braking late and deep and still coming out of the corner in front.

Kimi on the other hand, slows the car down less then anyone in the corners.

I remember Coulthard talking about looking at Mika's telemetry, and his brake vs throttle graph was a U in corners, whereas most drivers have a V, DC included.

He deduced that this trait is also shared by Kimi, and that being the thing exploited most by the inerter, was likely the reason for his untouchable drives in the Mclaren.

So I think it is a toss up between Lewis and Kimi, with Fernando in 3rd. I only rate Alonso lower because he is fussy about his brakes.
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute

andartop
andartop
14
Joined: 08 Jun 2008, 22:01
Location: London, UK

Re: Best Driver on the Brakes

Post

In China Trulli was the best on the brakes and Kubica the worst #-o
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. H.P.Lovecraft

DaveKillens
DaveKillens
34
Joined: 20 Jan 2005, 04:02

Re: Best Driver on the Brakes

Post

Data, we need data. More specifically, some of the telemetry from the cars.

Concerning Hamilton's braking style, he performs his braking using the physics involved. He brakes as hard as possible, carrying the brakes on as he turns into the corner (trail braking). Since he is on the brakes, the inside front tire transfers weight away, and traction lessens. The tire slides, and if allowed to continue, will flat-spot. But there's a fine balance where the tire is sliding, yet still turning. As long as the tire is rotating, a flat spot cannot develop. Tire wear is increased, but done carefully, Hamilton can do this all day and still avoid flat spots.
Racing should be decided on the track, not the court room.

User avatar
ISLAMATRON
0
Joined: 01 Oct 2008, 18:29

Re: Best Driver on the Brakes

Post

As big a fan of Hamilton as I am I have seen him flat spot alot more tires than any other driver since he has joined F1... could it be a nature of the "grabby" brake materials he was using in the past and was reported to have switched from recently but he sure does look on the limit under braking.

Is telemetry the only way we can discuss this subject?
andartop wrote:In China Trulli was the best on the brakes and Kubica the worst #-o
But Kubica was great on the turbo boost button a la Micheal Knight, maybe too much Knight Rider/David Hassellhoff watching at the BMW factory.

User avatar
Paul
11
Joined: 25 Feb 2009, 19:33

Re: Best Driver on the Brakes

Post

I think he just finds it more beneficial to lock inner front tyre, but brake harder with other three, than try to keep all four rotating. It is a sort of sacrifice.

Jersey Tom
Jersey Tom
166
Joined: 29 May 2006, 20:49
Location: Huntersville, NC

Re: Best Driver on the Brakes

Post

Hamilton isn't afraid to trailbrake very deep.

Does that make him great? Not necessarily. Works for the most part but he does brutally work the front tires at times.
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

CMSMJ1
CMSMJ1
Moderator
Joined: 25 Sep 2007, 10:51
Location: Chesterfield, United Kingdom

Re: Best Driver on the Brakes

Post

Paul wrote:I think he just finds it more beneficial to lock inner front tyre, but brake harder with other three, than try to keep all four rotating. It is a sort of sacrifice.
With the greatest of respect..that is nonsense.

Take of the rose tinted specs for a second and think about how brakes work.. nobody, even Mr L Hamilton, can decide to brake better than anyone else by using only 3 wheels...

I think Lewis is late on the brakes but the locking of them is not a good thing.

I would go Kimi if I had to choose..
IMPERATOR REX ANGLORUM

casper
casper
5
Joined: 05 Oct 2007, 02:56
Location: Equatorial Guinea

Re: Best Driver on the Brakes

Post

Fred Flinstone has direct tactile feedback from his brake pads so he can adjust the brake pressure in infinitesimal degree avoiding tire flat spots.

User avatar
zgred
9
Joined: 16 Mar 2009, 13:02

Re: Best Driver on the Brakes

Post

casper wrote:Fred Flinstone has direct tactile feedback from his brake pads so he can adjust the brake pressure in infinitesimal degree avoiding tire flat spots.
You mean flat feet. Painful errors in his case.

User avatar
Paul
11
Joined: 25 Feb 2009, 19:33

Re: Best Driver on the Brakes

Post

CMSMJ1 wrote: With the greatest of respect..that is nonsense.

Take of the rose tinted specs for a second and think about how brakes work.. nobody, even Mr L Hamilton, can decide to brake better than anyone else by using only 3 wheels...

I think Lewis is late on the brakes but the locking of them is not a good thing.
Well, it was just my opinion based on the fact, that if he blocks one wheel obviously it has the least traction. That means, if all the wheels are spinning, then the braking power on each of front wheels is equal to the braking power the wheel with least traction can handle. I won't argue that he loses time while the inner front is sliding, but gains more time while he brakes more agressively without trying not to block it at any cost. At least that is what my intuition tells me, and I would be glad if someone with experience in this field corrected me.

Scotracer
Scotracer
3
Joined: 22 Apr 2008, 17:09
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland, UK

Re: Best Driver on the Brakes

Post

It's hard to tell when you have over 2 tonnes of downforce and the stickiest circuit-racing tyres on the planet.
Powertrain Cooling Engineer

DaveKillens
DaveKillens
34
Joined: 20 Jan 2005, 04:02

Re: Best Driver on the Brakes

Post

FIA technical regulations:
11.1 Brake circuits and pressure distribution :
11.1.1 With the exception of a KERS, all cars must be equipped with only one brake system. This system must
comprise solely of two separate hydraulic circuits operated by one pedal, one circuit operating on the two
front wheels and the other on the two rear wheels. This system must be designed so that if a failure occurs
in one circuit the pedal will still operate the brakes in the other.
11.1.2 The brake system must be designed in order that the force exerted on the brake pads within each circuit
are the same at all times.

http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.ns ... 3-2009.pdf

In Formula One, with the best drivers available, you are either on the gas, or braking. Even in corners, coasting is not done. So the plan is to brake into the corner, turn in while braking, quickly transition to acceleration, and hit the apex going out. So it's very important to remember that braking is carried out while cornering and decelerating. Initially, it's simple to visualize the braking forces. Coming in a straight line, both left and right wheels bear equal weight. This weight comes from two forces, aero at higher speeds, and the sheer mass of the car, which is always present. So the car is braking into the corner, and speed decreases. Aero download also decreases, and thus tire traction too. A Formula One car can lock up the wheels in a straight line, but it can only be done at lower speeds. The huge downforce at speed gives the tires so much traction, they are more powerful than the brakes.
As the car slows, and the driver turns into the corner, centrifugal force wants to keep the car going straight. The weight is transferred, one side of the car (outside) bears much more weight than the inside. So the car is slowing, aero effect becomes negligible, and there comes a moment where the inside front wheel has more braking force than traction. The wheel slows or even stops. It's that moment where the better drivers can anticipate lockup, and let off the brake pedal.
Hamilton carries his braking a bit further, and we all see him locking up the inside front on a regular basis. But during that period where he abuses the inside front, the car is still decelerating, still braking, while other drivers may not. Hamilton brakes hard and tries to carry his braking zone as late as possible, but at the cost of abused front tires.

So like all driver skills, they are related to others. Some drivers are famous for being gentle on their cars, while others are famous for breaking them.
Racing should be decided on the track, not the court room.

User avatar
Roland Ehnström
1
Joined: 10 Jan 2008, 11:46
Location: Sollentuna, Sweden

Re: Best Driver on the Brakes

Post

CMSMJ1 wrote:
Paul wrote:I think he just finds it more beneficial to lock inner front tyre, but brake harder with other three, than try to keep all four rotating. It is a sort of sacrifice.
With the greatest of respect..that is nonsense.

Take of the rose tinted specs for a second and think about how brakes work.. nobody, even Mr L Hamilton, can decide to brake better than anyone else by using only 3 wheels...
Dave describes it very well in the previous post; Hamilton is simply trailbraking deeper than other drivers, braking slightly later while turning in slightly earlier. As Dave sais all F1 drivers do this to an extent, but Hamilton does it more than anyone. It's just a question of driving style, with pros (it's often faster, builds more heat into the front tires and makes overtaking easier) and cons (increased front tire wear, risk of flat-spotting and the odd missed apex).