Kers plus DDD? Fastest of all?

[u401768]

When the teams that worked on the winter on Kers, update there areo to have DDD, extended rear wing endplates etc, will this be the fastest combination and RBR, Toyota, Brawn, etc will have go down the Kers route to stay competitive?

Or is Kers a complete tech blind route to go down?

Will this reverse the current status quo, and really throw the championship wide open, as the current fast teams have to start R&D in a new unknown area?

[hulmerist]

it seems mclaren are progressing pretty rapidly, the bahrain circuit possibly flattering them slightly, but they will probably be back at the sharp end come mid season

considering ferrari's problems with kers, mclaren look the most likely team to be challenging the brawns, toyotas and red bulls

with a new aero package and their seemingly brilliant kers that mclaren could be pretty deadly in the hands of hamilton

[nudger]

the gap between mclaren and brawn may just be bridged with a fully intergrated ddd, but then its still only bridged because they have KERS. reality is that unless they do a complete rear end redesign, the ddd is not going to be optimum.
the other problem for mclaren is that their cupboard of upgrades for spain probably isnt as big as the others, because they have been incorperating them race by race.
its still a long haul for them to be racing for wins

[Fil]

car design is compromised to suit KERS. Some teams banked on the KERS advantage outweighing the disadvantage such a design would cause.
Currently it seems the non-KERS design still has an advantage, surely this will change though.

i'm fascinated to see if there is any truth in a lighter BMW for Barcelona as was mentioned at China. If this is the case, then more ballast for the team to move around could negate any disadvantage their KERS incorporation has caused, swinging the advantage the KERS way.

i think it is inevitable for BMW, McLaren, Renault, Ferrari (and in that order) to eventually become the quickest teams out there once they fine-tune KERS with the chassis.

[DaveKillens]

It's like a footrace, and once you are behind, hard to even catch up. And to take the lead is an even larger hurdle. While teams such as Ferrari, McLaren, Renault, and others work hard to catch up to the DDD cars, it must be remembered the DDD cars, especially the Brawn, will be also improving. Even if some teams close the gap, it will be changed when the lead cars also upgrade.
Right now, KERS does not really improve performance (at least when you look at just the lap times). Non-KERS are putting out very respectable lap times. But it's in the race, when defending or attempting a pass, is when KERS really makes a difference. As demonstrated during the Bahrain race, a slower car with KERS can hold of a quicker car without KERS. This situation introduces chaos and mayhem for the teams and drivers, but it sure gives us the fans one heck of a show.
People are different, and fans hold different opinions of what they wish to see in racing. Some consider it appropriate that the race should be decided on the quicker car and driver, without surprises upsetting the order of things. Others, such as myself, enjoy the intangibles, the surprises, and the changing of the guard. I enjoy watching a quicker car caught behind a slower one. Then my interest picks up, and I want to see how the car behind deals with the problem. That's what separates the men from the boys. That's what separates Michael from Ralf.

Getting back to the original question, the pace of devlopment will decide who's quickest at season's end, not what's on board. But if Brawn get what appears to be the most mature KERS, the Mercedes/McLaren system, into their car, look out. For them, integration of this system will probably be the easiest for all. And then they will have a car that is fundamentally correct, and with one of the best engine/KERS packages.

[WhiteBlue]

I also think that KERS will be the thing to have when they go into the second half of the season and the championship gets fought out in anger.

I see a very good chance that Red Bull will be in contention with Vettel at that time. Obviously they will first fix the DDD and then there is the opportunity to go back to KERS which they will simply add from MM when Ferrari and Renault have ironed out the teething problems.

[WhiteBlue]

dp

[Fil]

of all the teams, Brawn has been the most vocal in stating they will not run KERS this year. their car simply does not have any designs for it to be incorporated.
Toyota i'm pretty sure has also dismissed it for 09.
Red Bull, whilst initially claiming they'll run it once Renault incorporate it successfully, have since been strangely quiet about it.
Force India moved to a Mercedes deal due to KERS being a part of the drivetrain deal, but has also seemingly kept very quiet about throwing the system on the car.

Williams also intrigue me. Where is their unique system? i haven't even heard a squeak from them about KERS since the pre-season.

[DaveKillens]

If the Brawn car was designed to exclude KERS, then I missed that one, and some of my assumptions need to be altered.
But KERS, like almost anything, has advantages, and disadvantages. And the disadvantages are huge. Messes up the balance and weight distribution. Tricky, volatile system that still has bugs and teeth. And it costs a lot of money.
Right now KERS is a difficult technical system, and for some, the drawbacks do not justify it's inclusion. Meanwhile others are aware that this sytem does make a difference, especially when two cars are fighting for position.
Currently, if you judge a car just by the lap times, KERS is a waste of money, time, space, and mass. But once the race begins, I bet every driver wants that magic button.

[u401768]

Then again when you look back to turbos (in the Renaul), they were slow, heavy, and didn’t respond to the throttle - then before the end of the year they were the thing to have.

Not saying it will be the same with Kers - but just a thought. BMW and Ferrari are producing new light weight chassis, etc. Will they manage to claw enough weight back to resolve the balance problems, so could lead to a very interesting shift in the balance of Areo/Mech/Kers being the best way to go

[ISLAMATRON]

KERs being expensive is a relative thing... they probly wont cost that much more then redoing the cars for a DDD which will probly be banned for next year.

When you consider that Ferrari, Renault & RBR(+STR) all contributed to the Magnetti Mirelli program then you can see how the teams can share the cost of KERs development, not so for Diffusers, or any aero for that matter.

KERS systems developed by the teams also have other uses that they can sell to others outside F1... who is Ferrari gonna sell that 20 million doller DDD?

Plus there are outside companies, Bosch, Magnetti, Flybrid, and a bunch of battery companies that are contributing towards KERS development, not just in F1.

McMerc can recoup some of the KERS R&D money by selling to FIF1 or Brawn... they cant sell DDD's.

And lastly the manufacterers can use some of the R&D info towards their road cars... not so with DDD's

The idea that KERS is so expensive is more of FLAV's propaganda, like when the DDD was so expensive yet they had one on his private jet for the next race... He was probly mad that he coulnt get head from a supermodel on his private jet to China.

[nudger]

i think it is inevitable for BMW, McLaren, Renault, Ferrari (and in that order) to eventually become the quickest teams out there once they fine-tune KERS with the chassis.

rewind...
BMW???
are you sure lol.
I'd say the mclaren, contary to what we all thought originally, seems to handle the ballast issue very well....never do we hear their drivers complain of mechanical balance.

[SoliRossi]

As Stated by Newey when the RB5 was launched, and in subsequent interviews, the RB5 was designed for KERS. This was also part of the reason for the long wheel base, allowing them to run it but not compramise CoG as much.

From what i can gather, they have a fully operational unit, their venture is with Renault and MM, whre as Ferrari have developed theirs with MM on their own. Renault has not experienced the mechanincal issues that Ferrari has, but their KERS do not seem to be as powerful/effective as Macca. RBR's decision not to run it has come down to lap time. Basically they feel they get a better lap time wihtout it at this stage.

Alsos as long aas it basses the crash test webber will have a new Carbon Fibre gear box in Barcelona. Vettel a week later in Monaco. So this new CF gear box will likley help to incorporate the DDD as well as give them more margin for ballast and possibly KERS.

So to consider that the RB5 seems like the second quickest car with out either of the parts is pretty impressive. Even if they get one working with their design they should be at the front of the field.

[Conceptual]

Well, as Brawn said (loosely quoted) "Anyone thinking that the diffusor is the only thing that makes the BGP001 faster than the others is deluding themselves."

I am really gonna laugh when everyone shows up in Barcelona with updates, expecting to be closer to the front, and the Brawn update puts them another .6s/lap ahead...

I think that Brawn may already have their seasons worth of updates done, or close to done, and may just start on the 2010 KERS chassis after Monaco. They have had so much time in it (001) already, and have eliminated so many dead-end philosophies in the process, that they may very well be able to continue the 001 aero development on a KERS integrated 002 chassis.

And ISLAMATRON, the only thing that I have read that is more stupid than the "DDD is against the spirit of the rules" remarks is your "DDD are gonna be banned for 2010" remarks. Dude, they have become mandatory this year due to the court findings (and I am sure that MANY teams secretly are happy about this, since they ALL WANT MORE DOWNFORCE), so why the HELL would the FOTA push to make them illegal when they will all have them in time to design their 2010 cars around? Wouldn't that 20M figure that you pulled out of your arse be an even BIGGER waste of money if they couldn't carry the tech into 2010?

I'm sure that when all teams have them, it will take an act of God to get them binned. This is the solution to the "We have no grip" argument that we have heard since Australia, for zero drag penalty. What logic do you use to formulate an opinion that they will be banned for 2010? Or is it just you publishing your personal beliefs as fact, once again?

[Fil]

i think it is inevitable for BMW, McLaren, Renault, Ferrari (and in that order) to eventually become the quickest teams out there once they fine-tune KERS with the chassis.

rewind...
BMW???
are you sure lol.
I'd say the mclaren, contary to what we all thought originally, seems to handle the ballast issue very well....never do we hear their drivers complain of mechanical balance.

haha, no i'm not sure, no one can be. hence me saying "i think." i do admit there's a bit of personal bias and hope mixed in with that.
i just feel that with the team focusing on one huge development upgrade at Barcelona rather than lots of smaller upgrades, they could be a big winner in the development race, and with Brawn doing the same, it will be interesting who does better. by waiting until Spain they have both had the longest time to work on their developments, rather than cutting development-time early to rush them to earlier races.