STR vs Red Bull

[gcdugas]

Why isn't there more parity between the two Newey cars? Is it 100% the drivers? Just how much do you reckon the Renault engine was upgraded over the winter? Last year STR had the legs on RB, this year the opposite. Is it just Vettel? Should we wait a bit for it to even out?

[PNSD]

STR only really took the fight to RB when STR better understood the car.

Give it time and I bet Buemi and I hope Bourdais is back up there.

We've already seen flashes of speed from the STR.

[ESPImperium]

RB5 in the hands of Vettel = Pure WIn
RB5 in the hands of Webber = Win
STR4 in the hands of Buemi = Looking probable Win
STR4 in the hands of Bourdais = Fail

I think STR will get a handle on the car soon, altho, STR with far less time with the STR3 over Red Bull with the RB4 produced some amazing results towards the end of last year.

I think once the STR guys get a handle on the STR4 package im shure they will eventually have the legs of the Red Bull RB5 when in the hands of Webber. Vettel is diffrent class, i expect Buemi to follow Vettel to Red Bull next year tho as i do think Buemi is showing massive potential to be every bit as good as Vettel.

However, i feel that with the more time that the RB5 has had over the STR4, its already more advanced. I also think that the Renault engine has a massive part to play as well, with arround a 40hp gain (being my guess) in the winter to catch up, i am shure its more than capable to compete with the Ferarris and Mercedes now.

STR im shure will pull another shock this year some time as well. Maybes a second win, that would be my bet as i recon theres gonna be as many as 7 diffrent race winners this year.

[Conceptual]

I predict Alonso alongside Vettel in the RB6 in 2010.

STR will get their act together, but I doubt they will win a race this year!

[Scotracer]

What are the differences between the RB5 and STR4, exactly?

[Fil]

STR seems to be about 1-2 races behind in hand-me-down development parts, not to mention about 3000km's behind in testing mileage.

[ISLAMATRON]

What are the differences between the RB5 and STR4, exactly?

Engine for 1, transaxle to a small degree if i remember correctly, cooling requirements, possibly fuel milage, and level of development/testing miles

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I think once the STR guys get a handle on the STR4 package im shure they will eventually have the legs of the Red Bull RB5 when in the hands of Webber. Vettel is diffrent class, i expect Buemi to follow Vettel to Red Bull next year tho as i do think Buemi is showing massive potential to be every bit as good as Vettel.

Disagree with you there. I think the times between Vettel and Webber are perhaps the closest of any team mates this year and it shouldn't be forgotten Webbers horrific accident. His recovery has been amazing and to be so competitive shows the quality of the man.

When you look at the low fuel runs they are normally within 1/10 when most teams mates average 3/10 difference (yes I plucked the 3/10 from the air but I remember analysis of last year which came up with that.)

When you look at the qualies so far, Vettel has always been slightly lighter apart from Bahrain when Webber was blocked in Q1 and in this current field 1/10 in qualifying can mean 3 places.

Melbourne Malaysia Shanghai Bahrain
Vettel 657Kgs 647Kgs* 644Kgs 659Kgs
Webber 662Kgs 656Kgs 646.5Kgs 656Kgs*

* Vettel 10 spot penalty Malaysia
* Webber blocked Q1 by Sutil

Aust Practice 1 (Vettel stopped)
Aust Practice 2 Webber 1:26.370 Vettel 1:26.740
Aust Practice 3 Webber 1:26.355 Vettel 1:27.009

Malaysia Practice 1 Webber 1:36.703 Vettel 1:36.747
Malaysia Practice 2 Vettel 1:35.954 Webber 1:36.026
Malaysia Practice 3 Webber 1:36.048 Vettel 1:36.194

China Practice 1 Webber 1:37.752 Vettel 1:38.274
China Practice 2 Webber 1:36.105 Vettel 1:36.167
China Practice 3 Webber 1:37.330 Vettel 1:37.349

Bahrain Practice 1 Webber 1:34.827 Vettel 1:34.938
Bahrain Practice 2 Vettel 1:33.661 Webber 1:33.676
Bahrain Practice 3 Vettel 1:33.443 Webber 1:33.726

I agree that Vettel has had the best qualifying results so far but things are much closer than they appear and to say Vettel is in a different class is not really supported by the data. It is of course easy to get swept up with public sentiment and no doubt Vettel is a talent for sure, but if I were Mateschitz I would been very happy with Vettel and Webber as a pair and do my best to keep them (both of them).

Buemi has yet to do much apart to show up his team mate, who no one really rates anyway. I think 2009 will be Bourdais last year in F1.

[Patriiick]

Would be more relevant to look at the race pace of the said RB/TR drivers.
Such an analysis on qualifying times is sometimes misleading.

Why not look at the race pace instead ? You would be surprised at Bahrein's results.

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Would be more relevant to look at the race pace of the said RB/TR drivers.
Such an analysis on qualifying times is sometimes misleading.

Why not look at the race pace instead ? You would be surprised at Bahrein's results.

Yes but it is hard to properly account for all the variables in the races to date. Not only is there a difference in race period and conditions to account for but also track position etc

Australia fastest lap by Vettel lap 8 -0.368. Webber fastest L38. Webber involved in 1st corner crash, had damage and lost track position.

Malaysia WET fastest lap by Webber L14 -0.755 Vettel fastest L10. Vettel had 10 grid penalty at start

China WET fastest lap by Vettel L42 -0.353 Webber fastest also 42.

Bahrain fastest lap by Vettel L16 -0.409 Webber fastest L50. Webber Started P18 due to Q1 block

The only race there was parity was China where they set the fastest lap at same point (they had traded purple laps for a few leading up to this) and then no one can really say what the fuel loads were at the time. Since it was a really wet race conditions created the fastest lap point not fuel loads and one driver would have had more fuel at that time.

For the other 3 races, the slower driver was midfiled or higher when doing their fastest lap and I think it is clear than you cannot drive as fast in P11 as you can in P3.

Qualyfying is normally weight effected so there is a variable there too. so...IMHO practice times should be pretty comparible as

1.) Drivers would normally be running same fuel levels when they do their fast runs
2.) Traffic is less of an issue in practice since every one spaces for clear track
3.) There is more data to compare

If you look at the average race difference of + or - 0.471 I don't think that is really representative of the pace or delta in pace of either driver. I think that the 11 practice sessions I listed do show that the margin is more like 1/10 with Webber getting the winning ratio in practice and Vettel getting the winning ratio in Qualy and Race so far.

From my view it's a great battle and much better than watching Alonso smash Piquet.

[Patriiick]

What you need to establish race pace is a lap by lap analysis...that you cannot easily get after the race (unless you write down every lap from such driver during the live )

the fastest lap view can be very much hit or miss (otherwise toyota would have won fair and square).

If you look at bahrein, Bourdais absolutely demolished Buemi in race pace, posted very regular 1.37.7 laps..while Buemi, even before a front wing issue, was definitely off the pace.. and the Frenchman posted 9th fastest lap in front of Raikkonen.

For me, the race pace is a better mirror of a drivers real talent, but it needs to be judged (as you correctly point out) over the regularity and avg lap trimes..
A snapshot during race at lap X does not mean anything..

in F1, you re only as good as your last race.
Many people posted as early as 8 months absolutely dire and horrible things about Button.. look who s talking now.

I would not discount Bourdais having a future if he sorts himself out in quali by this summer. Otherwise..

[WhiteBlue]

Beside Vettel Berger left Toro Rosso. You may not have realized a big difference but he was vital to the successes of 2008. Without Berger Toro Rosso will simply revert back to the Rookie team status hey originally had and will get moderate development in preparation to be sold after the credit crunch.

[Conceptual]

Has there been confirmation that STR actually manufactured the STR4 chassis in house? I believe that RBT designed the car around the Renault engine/KERS system, and then left the STR team to adapt it to the Ferrari engine(possibly KERS?).

If I recall at the beginning of the season, STR said that they did all of the Mold layup in house, as well as designing the support systems (cooling, electrical, exhaust). I cannot remember exactly where I read that, maybe the STR4 launch?

On the Aero side however, they are rather identical. I believe that there are some differences around the engine cover, but nothing that obvious that I have seen.

It will be interesting how long it will take for STR to get the DDD update that Newey is working flat-out on right now. If RBT were to make sure that STR got THAT update the same weekend as the RBR team, they could maximize in-season "testing" of the new components. And if this update makes the RBR truly the quickest, it would also help their title hopes by helping STR get behind them, and in front of Brawn as to keep the points away from Button/Barrichello.

I am just happy that we get to watch this incredible chess match play out. Something tells me that we wont have many more seasons like this, so I am savoring every minute of it, boring processions and ICA hearings included!

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in F1, you re only as good as your last race.

You are absolutely right there

There is no doubt that if you are young and perform you are seen as hot and if you are slightly older (but no less capable) and in an average car you get rubbished. Ultimately it comes down to the car and who is your teammate.

2005 Michelin v Bridgestone (Not even a fair fight)
2006 Alonso v Schumi (A new King even without a mass damper and Schumi past it)
2007 Lewis v Alonso (Lewis won the press popularity vote but had a great car obviously to his liking)
2008 Massa v Kimi (Definitely goes to Massa - apart from British GP amd Kimi is going to retire or has lost his mojo - a car not to Kimi's liking)
2009 Vettel = next schumi, Lewis is leaving McLaren, Button is the new Lewis etc
12 months is a long time in F1 and I am sure this time we will be saying the Senna is the new ...Senna

[paused]

Has there been confirmation that STR actually manufactured the STR4 chassis in house? I believe that RBT designed the car around the Renault engine/KERS system, and then left the STR team to adapt it to the Ferrari engine(possibly KERS?).

If I recall at the beginning of the season, STR said that they did all of the Mold layup in house, as well as designing the support systems (cooling, electrical, exhaust). I cannot remember exactly where I read that, maybe the STR4 launch?

From the STR Launch press kit.

GIANFRANCO FANTUZZI – TEAM MANAGER
This year, Gianfranco is our Team Manager, but it’s in his previous role, in charge of the production side at Scuderia Toro Rosso, that Fantuzzi takes us through the build of the 2009 car.

“If you take parts manufactured in the factory or purchased directly by us, almost 100 percent of the car is made in-house. Our procurement department processes 14,000 drawings, including those for car components, jigs, tooling, assembly and so on,” says the former General Manager at the team.

The most obvious increase in home production is in the Composites Department.
“At first, we decided to make a few parts in our own composites department, but for the first time ever, we have now made the actual chassis in-house, whereas last year it was produced by Carbotec in Austria. This has been a big challenge for us and the chassis took up 100 percent of our energy up to the start of the season. It involved re-commissioning the original autoclave that has been here since before the Toro Rosso name went up over the door. We also had to take on more staff with good qualifications in the fields of laminating and trimming. In fact, before tackling STR4, we actually made a 2008 STR3 chassis to see how it would work out and that proved to be a very valuable experience.”

The factory itself has grown, with an additional building shaping up to be the new machine shop, while additional staff have joined on the design and composites side. As for the team’s future expansion, a lot will depend on how the sport’s rules determine just what constitutes a manufacturer and constructor in Formula One.

Here's the link if you want the full doc http://www.scuderiatororosso.com/PageFi ... 20Word.doc