Briatore's trash becomes Symonds' treasure!

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Conceptual
Conceptual
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Briatore's trash becomes Symonds' treasure!

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So, the Q+A with Symonds on the front page of F1T says alot of things, but some that I find particularly interesting...
Do you feel the drivers are getting the most from the R29?
I think they are, especially now that we've introduced the twin diffuser because the car was quite sensitive and difficult to set-up with the more conventional diffuser. The car used to have a very small sweet spot in terms of set-up, which made it difficult for Fernando and Nelson to get the most from the car.

I do believe that this has improved since we've fitted the new diffuser, but it's still difficult to judge because we have been so limited with the amount of running we've done, especially in dry conditions.
How do you expect the R29 to perform in Barcelona, which is renowned as the definitive aero circuit?
We weren't particularly satisfied with our performance in Barcelona during winter testing and I think that was probably because our aero performance was significantly below that of the cars with twin diffusers. Now that we have hopefully improved our performance with our own new- style diffuser, we certainly hope that Barcelona will be a bit more favourable for us.
So, as much as Flavio cried, whined, threw tantrums, and played the media like a fiddle about these "bad" diffusors, Symonds comes out and says that the team has greatly benefitted from introducing them. Even going as far as saying that the car sucked (or had a very narrow "sweet-spot") but now that they have the DDD, the car is better and easier to setup.

Also, I think Pat may have shot all of the teams in the foot with this remark:
Can you update us on the team's development programme as the European season begins?
The whole team is still pushing hard with development and the diffuser and floor that we brought to China was very much a first attempt and over the course of the year we will see several more versions, the first of which we hope to have in Barcelona.

In addition, we've got new wheel fairings this weekend with quite a major design change to give us an increase in downforce and a new rear wing. On top of that we've got a few small aerodynamic tweaks that we will introduce on a race-by-race basis. Overall we can expect a reasonable step in performance for Barcelona.
He shouldn't have admitted that the fairings add downforce, because now he is saying that they are an aerodynamic device, not a part of the brake ducting. It was obvious that they would reduce drag, and I think that is why they were allowed in the first place, but saying that they add downforce when the "spirit of the rules" that Flavio was so keen to promote was intended to REDUCE downforce, it rather makes Flav look like a raving hypocrite.

Make no mistake, I really like Symonds. Anyone who thinks that the answer to making a better race series is to "Give the drivers more power than the chassis can handle" is number 1 in my book!

Symonds for FIA pres in 2009!

modbaraban
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Re: Briatore's trash becomes Symonds' treasure!

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Conceptual wrote:................it rather makes Flav look like a raving hypocrite.
Flavio? No way! :lol:

xpensive
xpensive
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Re: Briatore's trash becomes Symonds' treasure!

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In all honesty, I fail to see the point of this entire thread. Nobody, least of all Briatore, ever denied the benefits of Brawn's controversal interpretation of the diffuser rules?

If anything, Symonds statements only supports Briatores case, that those diffusers made a great difference.

And Symonds mentioning of the wheel-fairings' addition to downforce and the "spirit of the rules" on the simplified diffuser, are to my mind subjects not even remotely related.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Briatore's trash becomes Symonds' treasure!

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seconded
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

kilcoo316
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Re: Briatore's trash becomes Symonds' treasure!

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xpensive wrote:In all honesty, I fail to see the point of this entire thread.

+1


Flav says the DDD means 7/10 teams will need to redesign their cars or they will be nowhere.

Symonds says the DDD is making a big difference to their car, in ways that are not always obvious.

vall
vall
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Joined: 04 Nov 2008, 21:31

Re: Briatore's trash becomes Symonds' treasure!

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Conceptual, I also don't see your point! This was what everyone, Flav included, was saying all the time: DDDs give clear advantage and PS simply said that in another way.

Conceptual
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Joined: 15 Nov 2007, 03:33

Re: Briatore's trash becomes Symonds' treasure!

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The point is that for all of Briatore's running at the mouth, he was proven absolutely wrong on the legality of the DDD, and now his team is HAPPY that he was wrong, because their car was utter crap, and now the "illegal" part that Flavio said was the worst is now the ONLY thing that is making their car any better.

I mean, I guess I could see Flavio's point if his car was anywhere near the performance of the RB5 without the DDD, because that car is actually done well, where the R29 has proven to be nothing but trash, and was only saved by the court rulngs exposing the part that his talent deficient design team missed.

It's like he used the ICA simply to expose the details of the design to cover his own incompetence, and now Symonds is HAPPY that the upgrade is making the car less crappy.

And what is htere NOT to get about admitting that the rimshields produce downforce? With that single statement, if I was Brawn, Toyota, or Williams, I would be protesting the legality of them at Barcelona, because by Symonds own words they are NOT BRAKE FAIRINGS, THEY ARE MOVING, DOWNFORCE PRODUCING, AERODYNAMIC DEVICES. The spirit of the rules comment was just another jab at the hypocricy of Flabio, but as you guys' comments state, it is OK to be a hypocrite in F1.

Giblet
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Re: Briatore's trash becomes Symonds' treasure!

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Conceptual wrote: And what is htere NOT to get about admitting that the rimshields produce downforce? With that single statement, if I was Brawn, Toyota, or Williams, I would be protesting the legality of them at Barcelona, because by Symonds own words they are NOT BRAKE FAIRINGS, THEY ARE MOVING, DOWNFORCE PRODUCING, AERODYNAMIC DEVICES. The spirit of the rules comment was just another jab at the hypocricy of Flabio, but as you guys' comments state, it is OK to be a hypocrite in F1.
I don't think anyone in the sport has been fooled by the fact that these fairings are just a thinly veiled shield of concept to allow their aero benefits.

I don't see anyone getting angry at these anytime soon as they have the static logo BBS on them now, where before the wheel people only got sponsorship from still shots.

As for Flav, I don't think he's so much the hypocrite, as he does _try_ to beat them, before he joins them for the most part.

If you don't fight for other teams to get things banned, your board/shareholders won't like it, as it's basically a free way to "get" performance from other teams.

On the other hand, if he doesn't immediately jump on to the other side as soon as it's declared legit, his board will also question his leadership as a dinosaur.

Damned if you do... damned if you don't.
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute

vall
vall
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Joined: 04 Nov 2008, 21:31

Re: Briatore's trash becomes Symonds' treasure!

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Conceptual wrote:The point is that for all of Briatore's running at the mouth, he was proven absolutely wrong on the legality of the DDD
Apologies, I got it now. For you everything FIA/ICA/stewards, etc. say is the absolute thruth :shock:
Conceptual wrote: I mean, I guess I could see Flavio's point if his car was anywhere near the performance of the RB5 without the DDD, because that car is actually done well, where the R29 has proven to be nothing but trash, and was only saved by the court rulngs exposing the part that his talent deficient design team missed.
Well, RBR do better, but if you look at the other non-DDD cars in Aus and Malaysia, R29 did not do much worse. It was only the DDD cars and RBR that were clearly ahead.

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Ciro Pabón
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Re: Briatore's trash becomes Symonds' treasure!

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Well, I don't know if Symonds supports Flavio or not, but I'm with Conceptual view here.

I think both, Briatore and Symonds, are right: the OWG, where Symonds was a member, ehem, shoot their own foot AND Renault must do something about it.

On a side note, I love Flavio flamboyant style (it's funny to have him around, I'll miss him when he retires!) and I also agree that Symonds words are a much more practical way to put the problem forward: "they caught us off balance, we're addressing the issue".
Ciro

timbo
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Joined: 22 Oct 2007, 10:14

Re: Briatore's trash becomes Symonds' treasure!

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Conceptual wrote:It's like he used the ICA simply to expose the details of the design to cover his own incompetence, and now Symonds is HAPPY that the upgrade is making the car less crappy.
You seem to be trolling, no?
It is this that won 2005-2006 titles.

And if anything the fact that DDD saves "crappy" R29 shows that Flavio had a point. Let's think backwards, what if Toyota and Williams (especially) were stripped of DDDs? Where in the field they would end up?

xpensive
xpensive
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Re: Briatore's trash becomes Symonds' treasure!

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I for one still don't understand what this thread is all about, Ciro's view in particular. The way I understand the situation, seven teams, including Renault, insisted Brawn's and two other team's interpretation of the diffuser-rules was incorrect.

They lost their appeal to FIA, why they now move on according to that verdict, what could be so remarkable with that?
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

mcdenife
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Re: Briatore's trash becomes Symonds' treasure!

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Let's think backwards, what if Toyota and Williams (especially) were stripped of DDDs? Where in the field they would end up?
Isn't that precisely the point (ie the fact they weren't and deemed legal)?
Long experience has taught me this about the status of mankind with regards to matters requiring thought. The less people know and understand about them, the more positively they attempt to argue concerning them; while on the other hand, to know and understand a multitude of things renders men cautious in passing judgement upon anything new. - Galileo..

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timbo
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Re: Briatore's trash becomes Symonds' treasure!

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mcdenife wrote:Isn't that precisely the point (ie the fact they weren't and deemed legal)?
Ain't it too obvious point to start a new thread?
I don't see any conflicting points in what Flavio and Pat said.

RacingManiac
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Re: Briatore's trash becomes Symonds' treasure!

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Wheel fairings are always aerodynamic aids, but they are allowed because they are packaged within the space of brake cooling. Just like DDD exists outside of the area of diffuser packaging.....