Red Bull keeps Renault engines 2010

[WhiteBlue]

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 49523.html

The German Auto Motor und Sport journalist Michael Schmidt writes in his article that Red Bull has finally pulled the trigger on the engine decision for 2010.

Adrian Newey was supposed to finalize design four weeks ago but the big negotiation round between McLaren and Mercedes-Benz this weekend has apparently not produced a final result. Red Bull was hoping to get McLaren's engine supply when the Stuttgart silver star is shifting his badge to Brawn next year.

http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2009/11/ ... d-mclaren/

According to Joe Saward the hope of that to happen must be pretty minute because McLaren are asking for two years of free engine supply, 300 mil $ and a free transfer of the 40% equity share currently held by Merc.

According to Schmidt the alternative to go Cosworth was eliminated after the FOTA engine suppliers agreed to equalize all engines to 2% of the relevant properties. Renault is rumored to have the lowest fuel consumption and they will apparently be allowed to make further adjustments in peripheral units to catch up with more powerfull engines. So it appears Red Bull has decided to side with the supplier they know instead of waiting for an increasingly speculative supply of Merc engines.

Merc must be hurting a bit considering Ron Dennis's power play.

[CMSMJ1]

Better the devil you know...

Best bet for Red Bull IMO. Renault engines are good enough and Red Bull will have a decent idea of the size of tank to design due to their knowledge of the fuel consumption of the current motor.

[myurr]

I'm more interested in what McLaren are doing as there could be a really big shake up there. With the budget restrictions coming in to place it looks like Ron wants to use the excess cash to build an engine division for both F1 and his road car projects.

It's all speculation but my guess is that unless Mercedes bite the bullet and agree to some spectacularly bad terms for an early pull out, that McLaren will use Mercedes power until the next change in engine formula (which I think is at the same time as the current deal runs out anyway). In the background they'll buy BMW's engine department and start early R&D on the new engine, aiming to get the march on the rest of the field. They'll also expand the engine dept so that they can build their road car engines there.

If it does pan out in that kind of direction then we really could see McLaren going head to head with Ferrari on the track and on the road, with a similar business model and long term strategy.

[myurr]

If McLaren did buy BMW's engine dept would they then be exempt from the homologation rules until the engine is first raced?

[axle]

BMW have stated that the Engine division is not for sale as a whole, but that they expect people to be rehoused in BMW itself + other teams.

[WhiteBlue]

Merc had their labor board member in Abu Dhabi. The whole supervisory board of the company was there. The significance is that at times of forced redundancies blowing a billlion $ for frivolous purposes like changing the works team would be intolerable to the capital as well as the labor side.

Haugg has been very carefull in all his statements saying that a long term contract exists and which requires the consent of all sides. If the asking price is such that it cannot be payed the status quo will probably continue. In that case Ron and Mansour will probably have no control over the sale of the Merc shares. A new and unfriendly majority owner with a different strategic direction could be something that has the potential to wreck Scuderia McLaren's Invest and Capex plans drastically. The whole thing seems to be in a rather delicate state.

[horse]

It doesn't surprise me if this is the case that Red Bull are sticking with Renault. I'm sure the rhetoric towards Renault from Red Bull has changed dramatically from when Christian Horner couldn't stop proclaiming "our weakness" (an obvious reference to the engine) is what cost them in Monza.

[ISLAMATRON]

It's all speculation but my guess is that unless Mercedes bite the bullet and agree to some spectacularly bad terms for an early pull out, that McLaren will use Mercedes power until the next change in engine formula (which I think is at the same time as the current deal runs out anyway). In the background they'll buy BMW's engine department and start early R&D on the new engine, aiming to get the march on the rest of the field. They'll also expand the engine dept so that they can build their road car engines there.

If it does pan out in that kind of direction then we really could see McLaren going head to head with Ferrari on the track and on the road, with a similar business model and long term strategy.

The deal includes 2 years of free Merc engines(which I'm sure they want the same spec) as the works team, so deal or no deal McLaren will be running Merc engines until 2011.

300 mil... is that US$? plus 40% stake of McLaren, back for free, which they can quickly turn around and sell to Middle east investors(how much is that 40% worth)... This would be a rich deal for McLaren... All of this why? Because Merc wants German drivers? It would have been cheaper to put MS in a McLaren.

[horse]

All of this why? Because Merc wants German drivers? It would have been cheaper to put MS in a McLaren.

Isn't it part of Mercedes' reasoning that they want a controlling stake in a formula one team? And this is where Ross Brawn is willing to be bought out, whereas McLaren never would be.

[ISLAMATRON]

Guess so, but didnt they know that going into the deal with McLaren, now they are going to have to pay a very large amount to get out of the deal.

What is it they will gain(in terms over control of the team) by shifting behind Brawn? If they desperately needed a german driver they could have easily placed Nico at McLaren. Just overall bad business planning by Merc at every angle of this... But McLaren might be coming out of all this smiling.

[myurr]

Guess so, but didnt they know that going into the deal with McLaren, now they are going to have to pay a very large amount to get out of the deal.

What is it they will gain(in terms over control of the team) by shifting behind Brawn? If they desperately needed a german driver they could have easily placed Nico at McLaren. Just overall bad business planning by Merc at every angle of this... But McLaren might be coming out of all this smiling.

Branding, I would guess. I'm sure that Brawn GP would be happy to be called Mercedes, whereas the McLaren name is here to stay.

[Confused_Andy]

It doesn't surprise me if this is the case that Red Bull are sticking with Renault. I'm sure the rhetoric towards Renault from Red Bull has changed dramatically from when Christian Horner couldn't stop proclaiming "our weakness" (an obvious reference to the engine) is what cost them in Monza.

Incosistant drivers too... Vettel or Webber have hardly been the JB of this year.

And before people slam me for that comment, JB finished in every race with points bar 1 this season before you forget.

[Rob W]

...In that case Ron and Mansour will probably have no control over the sale of the Merc shares. A new and unfriendly majority owner with a different strategic direction...

Theire shareholding arrangement would, without any doubt, include the absolute rights for the original McLaren share-owners to buy back any shares in the event of the partners wanting to split.

I also doubt they'd have trouble funding it to be honest. There is always a bank/institution somewhere willing to lend money for that sort of thing. A proven business who is a consistent leader in their chosen business... there are a lot more questionable businesses you could put money into.

[ESPImperium]

If McLaren did buy BMW's engine dept would they then be exempt from the homologation rules until the engine is first raced?

BMW have stated that the Engine division is not for sale as a whole, but that they expect people to be rehoused in BMW itself + other teams.

The answer to that question id say would be yes. Meaning they could make all the improvements they would need un-justified. But something says that they wouldnt as i think what BMW are doing is taking the engine department appart, then putting 20-40% of its staff in its other race engine plants for improvements in those areas. Then i think they rest will be taken into the busom of other teams, one being McLaren.

Personally i think that McLaren will take over a smaller engine company, one that i think they would be intrested in is Zytek, as they are the guys tuning the BMW engines for the new roadcars and they do race engines for ALMS, Euro F3000 and they were the previous supplyer of engines to A1GP before they cars went to Ferarri power. To me it would make sence taking a company such as Zytek over as then McLaren could get access to all their property. And one thing that they do make is LMP chassis, so basically they could become a supplier of LMP chassis to ALMS and then Ron Dennis can have the McLaren name there as well.

http://www.zytekgroup.co.uk/Default.aspx?tid=125

[gcdugas]

The new engine rule do coincide with the expiration of the current Mac/Merc deal. I expect that to run its course as contracted. Simultaneously Mac can buy whatever engine tooling and facilities they want from any willing party and develop whatever engine they can for the 2012 season rules.

Mac has dual needs... good production facilities for runs of 600-1000 engines/yr with upward expansion possibilities for the future car division. And they need the extra hi-tech smaller facilities for making F1 engines with their expensive casting techniques, hand made inconel exhausts, plasma metal treatment and coatings, etc. suitable for very small production runs of 50 or less per year.

RE: Red Bull... fuel economy will be important next year. The move to retain Renault was telegraphed late Friday when Vettel went out of his way to say nice things about Renault making it to the end on the season without grid penalties. Their engines are just fine and my guess is that they are 99.99% equal to the Merc. The RB5 won 6 races with it after all. I don't think the engine is the dog that the press makes it out to be. Especially after they were allowed to "equalize" before this last season.