Apprenticeships in f1

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domdogger
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Joined: 15 Oct 2009, 22:15
Location: Wisbech, Cambs

Apprenticeships in f1

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hello all
could you tell me if there is such thing as f1 apprenticeships and what qualifications would be needed. also what teams do them.

greatest regards dominic

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pjobmathew
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Joined: 14 Jan 2009, 09:09

Re: Apprenticeships in f1

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not exactly what u are looking for ,

but check out - http://www.williamsf1.com/corporate/recruitment/

hope it helps :wink:

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Scuderia_Russ
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Joined: 17 Jan 2004, 22:24
Location: Motorsport Valley, England.
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Re: Apprenticeships in f1

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On a side note. I met a motorsport student from Cranfield yesterday who didn't know what a helicoil or an a/v mount was. Bearing in mind this is someone working towards their second motorsport engineering degree. Amazing.
"Whether you think you can or can't, either way you are right."
-Henry Ford-

noname
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Joined: 13 Feb 2009, 11:55
Location: EU

Re: Apprenticeships in f1

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Scuderia_Russ wrote:On a side note. I met a motorsport student from Cranfield yesterday who didn't know what a helicoil or an a/v mount was. Bearing in mind this is someone working towards their second motorsport engineering degree. Amazing.
in CTECH (GE's training facility) I met design engineer from Mexico, already working for GE, staying in front of the engine (CT-7 or T-700) and asking where the front is...

pedrocoutoferrari
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Joined: 04 Oct 2008, 22:38

Re: Apprenticeships in f1

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what is a a/v mount? :oops:

domdogger
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Joined: 15 Oct 2009, 22:15
Location: Wisbech, Cambs

Re: Apprenticeships in f1

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thanks for the replies. is there any specific motorsport colleges?

domdogger
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Re: Apprenticeships in f1

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would a btec national diploma in motorsport engineering be enough?

noname
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Joined: 13 Feb 2009, 11:55
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Re: Apprenticeships in f1

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domdogger wrote:would a btec national diploma in motorsport engineering be enough?
it's not diploma but knowledge, skills, experience, desire and ability do develop himself make a good engineer.

diploma is just one of the many pieces of the puzzle.

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safeaschuck
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Joined: 23 Oct 2008, 07:18

Re: Apprenticeships in f1

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Dogger.. are you serious, i'm going to shorten you to dogger for this post then I may revert to Dom.
Yes you should be able to do an apprenteship with an F1 team however there are several issues with actually getting on board.

Age: Although mature apprentices are beggining to emerge in some industries they tend to be aged between 16 and 18 and pretty recently out of full time education in motorsport.

Connections: If one of the management or a freind of a director has a son about the right age you can bet there will be one less place getting advertised that year. You don't know anyone like that do you???

Ability: Competition for places is so tough it's --- wrong. Regardless of whether I think it's not fair to decide somones employability based on what they have done in school that's all they have to go on so if you have excellent GCSE's you will be in with a shout. Even if you have average grades you should still try, you won't know unless you go!

Geography: your going to have to be pretty close to a team because they won't neccisarilly pay you enough to commute very far. Offering to move is a nice thought but a company are going to look at the stress a relocation is going to put you under both financially and emotionally and that it's going to increase your chances of dropping out. This would be the easiest thing to lie about in order to get the job though :)

That's about the shape of it. Should you be lucky to get picked you'll do 3 years of 1 day at college and four days at work (day release) the first year being the utterly unnecasary NVQ 2 (fits in with national apprenteship framework, designed for all industries), then an NVQ 3 and A BTEC ND are completed in parralel in years 2 & 3. By the end of it you should have brushed up on your maths and physics, machined some basic components and built up a portfolio. The portfolio is basically a write up of selected jobs you do, day to day, all presented in a kind of 'user manual' format.

If you are lucky your employer will place you in a variety of departments during you tenure. This gives you a good overveiw of the business and gives them an idea of what your best at.

Most apprentices go on to complete an additional 2 years of day release which will earn you an HND. It is very difficult to join at this stage, i.e. you already have an BTEC ND/NC from college or another employer but want to study for a HND.
N.B. the NC = Certificate (full time education) ND = Diploma (gained while in employment)
A Higher National Diploma (HND) is a pretty heavyweight qualification for a shopfloor worker but not one which will neccisarily allow you to move 'upstairs' i.e. into design or management. There is something of a glass ceiling here, graduates upstairs, and, everyone else downstairs. Being excellent at your job on the shopfloor simply makes you indespensible down there so don't count on that!
R&D is more of a grey area as it so closely combines manual assembly and rig testing with computrised data generation and analysis.

All this being said, every company is different and some people become the exception to the rule.

About the only other way to get in, other than relevant experience, is placement year from university, which often leads to a job offer after the degree is completed although again competition for places is bordering on the insane.

Hope this helps, good luck.

domdogger
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Joined: 15 Oct 2009, 22:15
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Re: Apprenticeships in f1

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thank you safeaschuck for the reply

i am 16 and on track for about 6/7 higher grade passes in my gcses and the closest place i live to anything in this ballpark is lola cars also lotus f1. what would be the best thing for me to do as the college in my town does motorsport engineering in btec then degree level or do I do A levels in maths and physics then university?

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zenvision
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Joined: 12 Sep 2006, 19:06
Location: Malta

Re: Apprenticeships in f1

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always aim for university. it leaves your options open for the future and at least it will secure you a better income if you still make it in F1.
"Aerodynamics are for people who can't build good engines" Enzo Ferrari

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safeaschuck
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Joined: 23 Oct 2008, 07:18

Re: Apprenticeships in f1

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I went the apprentice route and I couldn't recommend it enough. By the time you are 19ish you have 3 years experience on the front line, you know about the products and the people and you aware of the world of work and the type of workplace you are going into. It's pretty much the same qualifications you would get studying full time and it dosen't take any longer to complete (well an extra year if you count the NVQ2 in year one but this is a very basic qulification for somone with good GCSE's, at least it gives you an acclimitisation year), it is more interesting and I found it held my attention much better than full time education. If you go as far as a HND you are easily qualified enough to persue a degree on completion and I beleive it knocks a year off your uni course (you can skip the first year of a degree) but you will have to check this as it may vary and it wasn't something I did.
Actually I think you should be eligable for uni with a plain old ND.

Should you wish to complete further education your firm will sometimes sponsor you through uni and it's great to have the people you trained with to call up and ask for info to use in your coursework. Not to mention a bit of summer holiday work if they can use you. Best to check and see if the firm you are applying for has ever done this as some might beleive that a time served apprentices place is in the workshop.

Lotus and Lola sound like splendid firms to work for, also who are major suppliers to F1 teams in your area does anyone do sub-contract machining? Search local enginering firms and look at their website's for evidence of strong links to F1 teams, try them too. Post there details up here if you are unsure whether they are a good choice for a job appliction. Somone will give you a thumbs up or down.

Plus think of all the apprentice based humiliation you will miss out on if you go to college full time. Requests for long weights, chequered paint, skirting board ladders etc. being physically restrained while parts of your anatomy are zip tied to workshop equipment, returning to find your immaculatly tidy workspace strewn about the floor, having your favorite keepsake in the entire world cut in half on a chop saw, dipped in the acid tank and torched with a heat gun. It's great!
This is what you look back on with a grimace and tell everyone that it made you a more rounded individual.
Whether it did or not is something only you will ever know :lol:

Bottom line, I would get your foot in the door as soon as poss. I find knowledge goes in better and stays longer when I am doing, rather than when I am being told.

Having said all that some people are better at being told first, then doing. (it can lead to slightly less embarassing mistakes) If that's you then perhaps the A level route is the answer. You might find it gives you an advantage in the office too in terms of thoretical knowledge (all that time in class has to do something for you, right? and the knowledge of some of the guys on this forum is proof enough that academia rules O.K.). It may also align you more with the upstairs types, it helps to be one of the guys in a job interview if that is your intended direction.

Go to the Factory young man. GO.
Find people, talk to them. Be bold.
Go to reception and ask to speak to someone in personel or human resources. Wait at the desk, be calm, then when they arrive tell them how much you would like to work for them. Tell them you would like to return wih your GCSE certificates, or take them with you in the first place. Tell them what you like about thier company (do research first) Get you mum, dad or gaurdian to come with you if you are bricking it. If you have relevant hobbies or a passion for motorsport talk about it (do NOT talk about big bore exhausts). If they turn you away leave them with something of yours, a name and contact number, a resume of sorts if possible. Find out if they are making appearances at motorsport shows or local events and go and introduce yourself to anyone from the firm who is there, ask them what they do in the campany, show an interest. Again, leave them a name and number, on paper, don't ask them only to put it in their phone, do that as well if you can. Ask for an email address or at least a name from each person you speak to, thank them for their time in talking to you.
Above all these people are human and there are certain things that cannot fail to impress them.
Do whatever you can as soon as possible, do not procrastinate, the A-level option will still be there if you have no luck. You may have to wait some time for an answer but you have to ask the question.

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Oh and I thought I would add, by way of an edit that if you do an apprenteship at a motorsport company the qualifications you end up with are very unlikely to have the word 'motorsport' in them. You will study plain old ENGINEERING. That is a subject which is plenty deep enough by itself and you should always learn the fundamentals before you try to be at the cutting edge.
You can read into that situation what you like but I personlly think that it comes down to the perception, as an individual student that a qulification with 'Motorsport' in the title sounds more interesting and sounds like it might lead to an exiting job! This is why some educational establishments are adding this word, and swapping in a few modules to try and draw normal engineering course go'ers away from rival colleges/uni's without a similar qulification of their own. :roll:
With motorsport job losses turning into something of a bloodbath I'm not sure how much longer having the word in the course title is going to be seen as a positive.

domdogger
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Joined: 15 Oct 2009, 22:15
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Re: Apprenticeships in f1

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Mr Chuck

can i ask did you do an apprenticeship?

marcush.
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Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 16:55

Re: Apprenticeships in f1

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Scuderia_Russ wrote:On a side note. I met a motorsport student from Cranfield yesterday who didn't know what a helicoil or an a/v mount was. Bearing in mind this is someone working towards their second motorsport engineering degree. Amazing.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

+1 safeaschuck

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Tim.Wright
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Joined: 13 Feb 2009, 06:29

Re: Apprenticeships in f1

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Scuderia_Russ wrote:On a side note. I met a motorsport student from Cranfield yesterday who didn't know what a helicoil or an a/v mount was. Bearing in mind this is someone working towards their second motorsport engineering degree. Amazing.
This is quite common in the motorsport and aerospace industries where people are highly specialised. If this guy doesn't work in manufacturing or detail design, he has no need to know what a helicoil is.

Im sure a lot of F1 aerodynamicists would not know what a helicoil is.

Tim
Not the engineer at Force India

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