Scuderia Toro Rosso - The other new team.

[Giblet]

For all in tents and porpoises, STR is a new team this year, as unless I am mistaken, which is very likely, they must build their own car now just like everyone else.

What are they allowed to do, what are they up to etc.

Can they run the same car as Red Bull if they build it themselves? Can they be "sold" the design?

What are these cats up to?

[mx_tifoso]

My understanding was that STR was using/buying the design from RBR up until 2009, and that is not allowed anymore. Now it must be an original design starting with the tub, and of course the rest of the car as well.

"Same team" as before though, just that now they are going to have to design the chassis, aero, and everything else they did themselves before.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[WhiteBlue]

STR started to build up resources for the full contructor role in 2007. In late 2008 they started to manufacture their aero updates by themselves. In 2009 they were doing all their own parts manufacturing while the basic car design still came from RBT. For 2010 they must design all of the car independently and manufacture it with own resources or suppliers.

I can imagine that they will still share some suppliers and some ideas with RBR/RBT.

[Terrible3]

For 2010 they must design all of the car independently and manufacture it with own resources or suppliers.

I am wondering how different the car has to be from the redbull to be considered a different chassis. I can see them basing their new car on the RB5 and having enough changes to the chassis to have it rehomogolated as a STR.

[Raptor22]

MX tifosi has it right.
1
STR will design and build their own car. They have always had inhouse capability to build carbon fibre parts since they stem from European Minardi f1 and Minardi before that.
What changes is that they have to conceptualise their own car, design it and build it.
Now since they are Red Bull owned and RBT provides the Red Bull F1 concern with the hands on design and engineering work, RBT will do the same hands on design work for STR.
The difference is that the concept of the chassis is now different from the parent F1 team.
Building the chassis was never a problem for STR.

[newbie]

Now since they are Red Bull owned and RBT provides the Red Bull F1 concern with the hands on design and engineering work, RBT will do the same hands on design work for STR.

This is not correct (and I dont think MX tifosi was implying this either). STR were hiring quite heavily towards the middle of last season and they have their own windtunnel in the UK. RBT will not be helping STR whatsoever. However, STR do have the RB5/TR4 as a baseline and so you can logically expect their TR5 to be an evolution based on the TR4. It will, of course, be interesting to see if they take a particularly different direction compared to RBR.

[Raptor22]

RBT will be conducting detail design for both RBR and STR albeit with two separate teams. The works comes out of the same organisation.
Construction of the chassis and other components is handled by different concerns.

The hiring STR undertook was for positions in conceptual design, materials and other operational engineering duties. Some of the stafff hired are based at RBT.

There is no FIA ruling against utilising outside design "consultants" or the same design consultants as another team as long as the conceptual work is derived from a teams own design team.

As far as i know, STR will also use RBT's windtunnel through 2010, albeit staffed with their own engineers

[ESPImperium]

I was under the impression that to what MX said above, that STR has had theyr staff increased from 110 people to arround the 185-200 mark, mainly so they can have staff run their newly built windtunnel and full CFD facility at Faenza. Although the STR Faenza tunnel is only capable of 60% scale models.

But the Faenza facility is more or less a fully contained team now as Red Bull had to "sell" Red Bull Technology to be complient to the 2010 rules. In other words the 70-100 staff they had there got transfered to either Red Bull or STR. The best staff were kept by Newey, the rest got the option of going to Italy to work, of whitch most did. Others took the obligotory 6 months leave before moving to another team in the UK.

But STR-Ferarri will have to run more or less a completly fresh design, with major design diffrences to what the RB6 will look like.

[newbie]

RBT will be conducting detail design for both RBR and STR albeit with two separate teams. The works comes out of the same organisation.
Construction of the chassis and other components is handled by different concerns.

The hiring STR undertook was for positions in conceptual design, materials and other operational engineering duties. Some of the stafff hired are based at RBT.

There is no FIA ruling against utilising outside design "consultants" or the same design consultants as another team as long as the conceptual work is derived from a teams own design team.

As far as i know, STR will also use RBT's windtunnel through 2010, albeit staffed with their own engineers

as i said, what you have posted is wrong. From now on, RBT=RBR. there is no contact between Milton Keynes and Faenza.

[Fil]

newbie, Raptor, do either of you have any sources for what you're both saying? they're quite detailed responses, but nothing matches the other's story.

so either these are assumptions, or the knowledge has come from somewhere. it'd be good to find out what the reality is.

[axle]

But STR-Ferarri will have to run more or less a completly fresh design, with major design diffrences to what the RB6 will look like.

It's conceivable that 2 design groups both working from the RB5/TR4 baseline will evolve their cars similarly. As long as the FIA are happy that the evolution is entirely their own work then that will be enough. The do not have to throw the TR4 away and design something wholly different as that would be effectively say that you will never be allowed to design a winning car as it must be "different".

STR will have reverse engineered the TR4 design to create their base line and then moved forward themselves. Both teams know they will have to make the DDD more effective and you could see one go Pull-Rod and the other Push-Rod...

[newbie]

newbie, Raptor, do either of you have any sources for what you're both saying? they're quite detailed responses, but nothing matches the other's story.

so either these are assumptions, or the knowledge has come from somewhere. it'd be good to find out what the reality is.

unfortunately all i can say is that what i have said is a collection of facts and i would rather not say more.

[Raptor22]

RBT will be conducting detail design for both RBR and STR albeit with two separate teams. The works comes out of the same organisation.
Construction of the chassis and other components is handled by different concerns.

The hiring STR undertook was for positions in conceptual design, materials and other operational engineering duties. Some of the stafff hired are based at RBT.

There is no FIA ruling against utilising outside design "consultants" or the same design consultants as another team as long as the conceptual work is derived from a teams own design team.

As far as i know, STR will also use RBT's windtunnel through 2010, albeit staffed with their own engineers

as i said, what you have posted is wrong. From now on, RBT=RBR. there is no contact between Milton Keynes and Faenza.

I do know that the operational side of the RBR and STR are now divorced. The MK wind tunnel is used for RBR and the tunnel in Faenza (or has it moved to Dallara?) is used for STR.

as for the design office where the CFD and mechanical design is conducted is still sited at RBT where STR has their own people and offices.

I'll do my homework and either correct or reinforce what I posted.

[Raptor22]

Ok I've done some checking and it appears that both Newbie and I are right.

STR is totally divorced from RBR. This in fact happened at the end of the 2008 season when STR was put up for sale, unsuccessfully. It is still owned by Red Bull and will be sold off as soon as a buyer is found.

It appears that part of the staffing up had to do with difficulty selling a team that did not have all the required competencies on board. Hence Red BUll has indeed provided the budget for STR to increase the staff complement.

this is where it gets sketchy though and perhaps Newbie does have inside inside info on the degree of the divorce. My sources seem to think that RBR is indeed being contracted to conduct some detail design work for STR; mostly subsystems and CFD work where STR is rather weak still. The concepts are all STR owned though and are not influenced by RBR as it was in the past (where STR was essentially a customer team of RBR)

it would appear that Mateschitz would like STR to be as competitive as possible in order to make it attractive to a potential buyer. Although what does appear more likely, is that STR will be used to help shape the workings of a resource constrained team. The learning can then be rolled into RBR.

So yes RBR and STR will now focus on design and development of their cars independantly. RBR will contract out resources to STR for some design work but STR will be run as a resource capped team.

[WhiteBlue]

http://www.motorsport-total.com/f1/news ... 22502.html

Some facts from the report:

• Toro Rosso doubled the number of factory halls from 3 to 6
• Team headcount grew from 80 - 257, 60 of those for the new season
• The wind tunnel for STR is in Bicester with 25 staff (included in the 60)
• STR has already passed several crash tests and has crashed more than 2 mil € worth of components
• Every component is now developed, manufactured or purchased independently