KERS as a packaging fuel saving aid in 2010

[BreezyRacer]

I'm just wondering ..
Next year no refueling, thus lots of room/weight taken up in fuel. In that environment wouldn't KERS be a BIG payoff in that it continually reuses energy, to the point of reducing packaging needs instead of adding to packaging like it does today? And of course, lap on lap, it would be fuel saving as well.

Given that these assumptions are true it will be interesting to see teams break away from the FOTA agreement of no KERS in 2010.

Let the speculation begin!

[timbo]

With 400kJ limit it would safe only a couple of liters of fuel per race. Increased dry weight may make things easier for engineers, but volume of KERS motor would come into play next year I guess as it is placed right where fuel tank could be.

[xpensive]

timbo is correct of course, when one liter of gasoline holds 34 200 kJ.
But even so, any saving is obviously dependent of the driver holding back on the throttle when releasing KERS.

[timbo]

timbo is correct of course, when one liter of gasoline holds 34 200 kJ.
But even so, any saving is obviously dependent of the driver holding back on the throttle when releasing KERS.

How many times driver can change engine map per lap? I think they can set another engine program when using KERS.
I'm still interested at how packaging problems would be solved. Ironically, I believe Williams would have more problems with their flywheel KERS as, obviously, placing flywheel anywhere but close to car's center of gyration would negatively affect handling, so they would have to place both KERS motor/generator and flywheel/motor/generator where you'd want to have a fuel tank.

[BreezyRacer]

In terms of pure Kw energy, I agree with your statements. However this year we are seeing the sudden embracing of KERS as the season winds down. Proof positive that it's proven itself as being worth the tradeoff. Next year it will be even more so, with the higher weight limits on the chassis sans fuel, and the fact that there is no refueling allowed.

I was under the misconception that the FIA had increased the KERS output limits for 2010, but that does not appear to be the case. I guess that's something that was talked about pre-2009 when KERS was first talked about.

Again, will any team cross over from the FOTA policy? And I don't think Force India is part of FOTA. If they went KERS what would everyone else do?

[Scotracer]

KERS can't be used as a fuel saving device as it only works on full throttle.

[xpensive]

If you can install a 100 kW MGU, have a 100% energy pick-up for 20 sec of braking and then store it, you got 2000 kJ.
The engine at full song produces that in less than four seconds.

[SZ]

Teams will use anything as a fuel saving device if the FIA gets smart and mandates a limited volume of fuel per race

[BreezyRacer]

KERS can't be used as a fuel saving device as it only works on full throttle.

Any power that doesn't come from the petrol is going to save fuel/ vs power used. Imagine how hard it will be to accelerate these heavier cars next year. Certainly the KERS will help with that.

[Scotracer]

KERS can't be used as a fuel saving device as it only works on full throttle.

Any power that doesn't come from the petrol is going to save fuel/ vs power used. Imagine how hard it will be to accelerate these heavier cars next year. Certainly the KERS will help with that.

Yes but it wont help achieve the same rate of acceleration, it will increase it. The KERS isn't taking up some of the load to achieve what a non-KERS car could - the engine is still under full load. No fuel saving.

If the engine can produce a peak rate of acceleration of about 1.4G (after traction isn't the issue) but a KERS car can do 1.5G...the engine is still producing 1.5G with the KERS taking up the last 0.1G.

[BreezyRacer]

Well scratch the whole "non FOTA teams may use KERS" idea. Just today Williams and Force India are back onboard with FOTA. KERS is probably truly dead, unless a startup team were to go that route, which even I view as highly unlikely.

[SZ]

Ah, so now we really need a fuel limit

[WhiteBlue]

Williams have said that they will stand up for KERS use as FOTA members as they have when excluded from FOTA. I agree with that policy. It is obvious now that the overwhelming impact of the DDDs has vanished (all teams have now optimized it) competitive advantages can be derived from KERS. That will continue to happen next year. I expect Merc to change their stance on KERS pretty soon and FOTA may have more than one member which supports KERS. To change the rule for 2010 unanimity is required, which I do not expect to happen.

[BreezyRacer]

I expect Merc to change their stance on KERS pretty soon and FOTA may have more than one member which supports KERS. To change the rule for 2010 unanimity is required, which I do not expect to happen.

If Mercedes and it's teams change stance on KERS then the doors will be swung wide open and everyone will have to have it to be competitive.

[xpensive]

I doubt it. Ferrari has had it with the senseless spending for very little gain and don't want it no more.
And what Ferrari don't want, the others won't get either.