Mclaren and Mercedes partnership

[Ashley]

Could Mclaren compete in a world championship on its own without its actual
partner (mercedes), thus producing its own engine, in the near future?

[Herr_Koos]

Who's to say they need to build their own engine? Sure, they won't have an official Merc partnership anymore, but nothing prevents them from buying Merc customer engines.

[astracrazy]

I believe the engine deal ends in 2015 - after then its up to Mclaren to do what they want.

There have been rumors of Mclaren producing there own engines, but its died down lately.

[Herr_Koos]

If McLaren do plan to build an engine, then they've probably already started work on it. As Peugeot proved so dramatically a few years ago, you can't slap an F1 engine together overnight.

[WhiteBlue]

McLaren have a guaranteed supply for 2010 and 2011. Then they have an option which can be dropped (I believe by both sides). With the new formula coming in 2013 staying 2012 with Merc will make sense.

[Herr_Koos]

What happens in 2013? Have they agreed to a new format yet?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

McLaren produce its own engines?
Not a rats chance in hell.

McLaren have leveraged themselves by producing the MP4-12C, and it will need to sell well for a good few years before McLaren see any return on their investments.
On top of this to actually buy an existing or build a new Engine division would be heinously expensive. Prohibitively so and it will be at the expense of their F1 car design division, McLaren F1.

Then there is the the very real possibilty that the engines turn out to be no good or merely average. This is exactly why McLaren, for all their intentions of being Ferrari wannabe's, cannot justify spending hundreds of millions to get what they currently do for a fraction of the cost.

And its also no coincidence that prior to Mercedes involvement, McLaren floundered with Peugeot and Ford after the Honda glory days. So their standing has also got a lot to do with the Mercedes-Benz partnership, be it financial or technical.

How they stand up once Mercedes have fully severed ties will be the acid test.
The waters get deeper and murkier as a big fish.....

[donskar]

McLaren produce its own engines?
Not a rats chance in hell.

McLaren have leveraged themselves by producing the MP4-12C, and it will need to sell well for a good few years before McLaren see any return on their investments.
On top of this to actually buy an existing or build a new Engine division would be heinously expensive. Prohibitively so and it will be at the expense of their F1 car design division, McLaren F1.

Then there is the the very real possibilty that the engines turn out to be no good or merely average. This is exactly why McLaren, for all their intentions of being Ferrari wannabe's, cannot justify spending hundreds of millions to get what they currently do for a fraction of the cost.

And its also no coincidence that prior to Mercedes involvement, McLaren floundered with Peugeot and Ford after the Honda glory days. So their standing has also got a lot to do with the Mercedes-Benz partnership, be it financial or technical.

How they stand up once Mercedes have fully severed ties will be the acid test.
The waters get deeper and murkier as a big fish.....

+1 Good post. This is a VERY interesting topic.

[Herr_Koos]

Weeeell, they just built a 3.8-litre V8 twin-turbo pushing out 600 bhp and 572 Newtons for the Mp4-12C... I don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility that they could produce an F1 engine as well.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Her Koos (afrikaans meneertjie?)

I disagree, Ricardo engineering developed this engine.

What you have is a classic case of McLaren PR. I like McLaren dont get me wrong, but they will not want punters to think a third party was responsible for somthing that McLaren are (rightly) making big noises about.

The story actually has its roots alot deeper, McLaren purchased the design of a stillborn indy car engine project from MCT. They then asked Mahle to develop the engine to a set specification(Power/Mass/Consumption/Emissions) but early on in the project it became very clear that Mahle were not delivering the goods as engines kept going POP.

So the specs were given to Ricardo and they weaved their magic on this engine to create what is now the 3.8 litre V8 beast that currently inhabits the MP4-12C.

So no, Mclaren are not directly responsible for the engine although in all fairness they have paid for it.
Credit where credit is due to RICARDO.

And Donskar
Thank you

[feynman]

Well, yes and no.

The original query is about McLaren hoping to replace Mercedes F1 engines, but they aren't really Mercedes are they, the DNA is Ilmor. If you pay for it though, you quite rightly get to put your name on it, it's yours, so it's a Merc. Same would go for McLaren.

Cash flow is tight, and they're leveraged to the hilt, but it wouldn't take much imagination to envision a joint-venture, a start-up spun-off: McLaren/Ricardo-High Performance Engines. (an F1 engine for the team, try to sell some with the gearboxes and rear-suspensions to other teams, an engine for the next roadcar above the 12C, an engine for GT racing, or an AMG-type lump that they hawk around other supercar manufacturers).

When Dennis says a British Ferrari, I think he really means it, and that at some point along the road, does means engines.

[Just_a_fan]

So no, Mclaren are not directly responsible for the engine although in all fairness they have paid for it.

A bit like the Ilmor, sorry, Mercedes F1 engines then...

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Nope, Mercedes F1 engines have been fully Mercedes since the buyout of Ilmor in 2005.
Even before that Mercedes had a majority holding in Ilmor engineering.


So I would only cede that before 2005 it was 60% Mercedes, and from 2005 it is Mercedes-Benz High performance engines(MBHPE) And was changed top to bottom in terms of staff and equipment since.
A German (Thomas Muhr) heads an anglo german team of engineers and any semblance of Ilmor has actually been replaced with Mercedes engineering culture.

Interestingly Cosworth headhunted a few of Mercs staff in 2009....


So to put into perspective that would mean McLaren would have to buy Ricardo and fit out with alot of its own staff to have anything like the affinty Mercedes F1 engines have to the Mercedes juggernaut. So it remains a Ricardo unit, and MErcedes F1 engines are indeed Mercedes-Benz.


Further to Mclaren making its own F1 engines read my earlier post why that idea is dead in the water.....MONEY.

[lebesset]

McLaren PR ?

the release I read said...a british made engine which I take to mean not a McLaren made engine

where's the PR in that ?

and I thing there is the odd McLaren shareholder with a little cash behind them !

and when did ricardo start manufacturing again , I thought they provided the necessary technology to companies like mercedes HP engines

[Shaddock]

McLaren produce its own engines?
Not a rats chance in hell.

McLaren have leveraged themselves by producing the MP4-12C, and it will need to sell well for a good few years before McLaren see any return on their investments.
On top of this to actually buy an existing or build a new Engine division would be heinously expensive. Prohibitively so and it will be at the expense of their F1 car design division, McLaren F1.

Then there is the the very real possibilty that the engines turn out to be no good or merely average. This is exactly why McLaren, for all their intentions of being Ferrari wannabe's, cannot justify spending hundreds of millions to get what they currently do for a fraction of the cost.

And its also no coincidence that prior to Mercedes involvement, McLaren floundered with Peugeot and Ford after the Honda glory days. So their standing has also got a lot to do with the Mercedes-Benz partnership, be it financial or technical.

How they stand up once Mercedes have fully severed ties will be the acid test.
The waters get deeper and murkier as a big fish.....

McLaren could buy Cosworth for a little over $100 million, split the company for PR purposes, and have a McLaren engine on the grid the next year.