Christian Horner is complaining about engine disadvantages

[thestig84]

I agree with Islamatron and JohnsonsEvilTwin. I think more people will start to think he is sounding like a sore looser even though RedBull are far from loosers perhaps he is fearing it after they have dropped so many points this year.

I cant really add to the points so far as they are spot on. Just wanted to add my name to the growing list of people that are growing tired for Horners moaning. Does he not know how to deal with any issues without making sure it is splashed all over Autosport or on BBC red button friday.

I dont think he will get his wish....if he does I hope it causes more renaults to go bang, maybe making him more careful what he wishes for in the future!

[raymondu999]

if he's complaining about this we might as well have a spec engine in the series.

[xpensive]

if he's complaining about this we might as well have a spec engine in the series.

Difficult this, F1 engine-regulations are already as close to a spec as you can get, but as always, God is in the details and someone is bound to be more successful than others. Problem is of course when someone feels like being left behind, knows what to do about it,
but is not allowed to do so.

But in this particular case, claiming to be as much as 30 Hp behind after two chances to catch up, very little sympathy there.

[Professor]

I think f1 engines are spec Engines - They are limited to 4 stroke engines with reciprocating pistons, 2400cc displacement, 18000 rpms, 90 degree V configuration, four poppet valves per cylinder, and the valve seats must be round. Other than the crankshaft speed of 18000 rpms, there is nothing unique about this design.

The cylinder bore diameter is limited to 98mm, the cylinder spacing is fixed at 106.5mm, and the crankshaft center line must be at least 58mm above the reference plane. This forces everyone to have an engine that is essentially the exact same dimensionally.

The weight of the engine is a minimum of 95kg, the vertical center of gravity must be at least 165mm above the reference plane. The longitudinal and lateral center of gravity of the engine must be within 50mm of the actual center of the crankshaft and the center of the cylinders. Again, these regulations result in engines that are virtually identical.

Variable valve lift is not allowed, variable valve timing is not allowed. Turbocharging or supercharging is not allowed. Fuel pressure is limited to 100bar. Only one fuel injector per cylinder is allowed. Only one spark coil and spark plug per cylinder are allowed. Only conventional spark plugs are allowed.

Materials are limited and purposely exclude materials that are exotic regardless of their technical usefulness.

The engine management systems are controlled by a spec ECU produced by an FIA contractor. Teams can map them to suit their needs, but the ECU architecture prevents any exotic software from being employed.

After looking closely at the engine rules, it is clear to me that the engines are spec class engines. All manufacturers build essentially the same engine. They have no room to innovate. It is true that some manufacturers do a better job of constructing the power plant than others, but for the most part there is nothing unique or interesting about F1 engines.

Lastly, the fuel options are zero. Even though the teams source their fuel from different suppliers, this has more to do with sponsorship dollars than with fuel quality or specification. The fuel spec takes up two pages in the regulations and defines the properties of 15 different components. There are no options for diesel, natural gas, bio fuels, or any other fuel types.

This is pretty freaking spec to me.

http://www.formula1journal.com/2010/05/ ... lood1.html

[Just_a_fan]

Just about the only thing they could have done differently from each other (prior to the engines being homologated) was the shape of the piston crown, the cylinder roof and the port details. These will have an effect and once homologated there is nothing that can be done to change them because there's no way they'll persuade the FIA it's needed for safety or reliability.

Weight of components such as pristons and con rods will be individual to each engine design too but I'll bet they're close and don't have much effect unlike the shaping already mentioned.

If they're going to run a spec engine series (which will never happen because Ferrari won't run someone else's engine) then I'd hope they'd choose the Merc engine. That or a Ferrari V12!

[xpensive]

Remember that one point the prospect of a full-spec engine was real, with the FIA having a tender which Cosworth won,
surely this is why the new teams were requested to run the CA2010.

At the end of the day, even if the configuration, CofG and what not is specified, it seems some animals are more equal than others.

[WhiteBlue]

Remember that one point the prospect of a full-spec engine was real, with the FIA having a tender which Cosworth won, surely this is why the new teams were requested to run the CA2010.

The new entrants were required to use Cosworth engines to ensure that Cosworth had a sufficient business base and the grid had an affordable, independent engine which every team can use. This has been achieved which is sufficient justification for the move IMO.

Let's not forget that the use of the current engine formula has led to terrific seasons with great championship battles. I think that is much more important than having screamers with 22.000 rpm that cost more than a hundred million $ to run for a pair of cars per season.

[Blackout]

Edit.

[Blackout]

The Renault engine was, in 2006, one of the most powerful engines if not the most powerful. And Renault respected the regulations (and reduced its budget) unlike Mercedes and Ferrari who continued to 'improve the reliability' of their engine...

Renault has had 2 engine mods since the inception of the engine freeze.

Mercedes and Ferrari has had more.

I hope the FIA will publish the exact numbers... and stop making such stupid and weak regulations...
I also hope that Horner will shut his mouth

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

The Renault engine was, in 2006, one of the most powerful engines if not the most powerful. And Renault respected the regulations (and reduced its budget) unlike Mercedes and Ferrari who continued to 'improve the reliability' of their engine...

Renault has had 2 engine mods since the inception of the engine freeze.

Mercedes and Ferrari has had more.

I hope the FIA will publish the exact numbers... and stop making such stupid and weak regulations...
I also hope that Horner will shut his mouth

This is not correct.
Mercedes to the best of my knowledge has not gone to the FIA and expressly asked to change the design of its engine. Renault has TWICE.
Mercedes has refined its design but hasnt changed any innards as far as Im aware. What they have changed is the exhaust, in many ways to what you see now.

Small improvements that dont require a change of design are within the rules. Asking to change is a different story....

[ISLAMATRON]

...
This is pretty freaking spec to me.

http://www.formula1journal.com/2010/05/ ... lood1.html

If they are spec then why is Horner complaining?

If they are spec then why is the Merc considered the best?

If they are spec why does the renault get better gas milage.

Ferrari themselves cannot produce 2 identical engines of their own spec, the engines are not spec, they just have very tight specifications.

It was made that way 1: to contain costs and 2: so that the independent teams can switch engine suppliers easily.

F1 has always had engine regulations, they are just a little tighter now.

and again, these are rules put in by the teams, not the FIA, the teams were chose to switch to V-8's rather than to restrict the V-10's, and then the techinical working group put together the specs for the new V-8 based off the V-10's that everybody was already running with a "just lop off 2 cylinders" theory.

The V-10's had all converged and become very close in spec even without all the engine regulations... so those specs were just carried over to the V-8's

[WhiteBlue]

and again, these are rules put in by the teams, not the FIA, the teams were chose to switch to V-8's rather than to restrict the V-10's, and then the techinical working group put together the specs for the new V-8 based off the V-10's that everybody was already running with a "just lop off 2 cylinders" theory.

With all due respect for your knowledge of F1 I believe you only telling half the story there. The V8 move was done by the FiA on safety grounds as the races had become dangerously fast in 2004 and in 2005 they were only able to put in the one tyre rule as a stop gap.

There was very serious opposition at that time by the teams that were organized in the GPWC (later GPMA) like McLaren, Renault, BMW, Honda and Toyota. Ferrari initally sided with the GPMA teams but was bought away by Bernie in 2005 by an extra payment of 100 mil $. Generally the manufacturer based teams just wanted to continue their fight for supremacy by outspending each other and engines were the item that was high on their agenda. I'm pretty sure that the teams would have never gotten 70% for the V8 decision if there had not been a threat to cut power anyway. It was well known at the time that Mosley only pulled BMW over to his side in December 2004 by massive threats. He told them that he would publish that their new 5-class car had initially scored a low rating in the Euro NCAP test. Theissen eventually gave in on that threat.

Mark Webber for Red Bull (a private team still running Ford Cosworth) was openly critical about the V8s.

I believe the teams had the option to accept a rev limit or the chopping of two cylinders as Islam said. They didn't like any one of the alternatives but decided to go to V8 as Islam said. But the decision was dumb with hindsight as the V8 only ran without restriction for one year.

I don't like the rule. It wasn't necessary because they could have reached the same goal by limiting the power of the old V10s. the new V8s cost a fortune and eventually we'll probably end up limiting their revs because they will become too powerful.

By just limiting the V10s we could have saved lots of money. There was a meeting with all the teams to discuss reducing costs and it went badly. The main idea was that by limiting engine capacity by 20 per cent we'd have seen a similar reduction in costs and power - but that was complete nonsense. The constructors later realised what costs they would face when it was too late.

[andrew]

F1 has always had good and bad engines and part of the specticle was cars improving throughout the season in both aero and engines, not just aero. I can understand that Horner is annoyed but did FOTA not have to agree the engine freeze? Is he not in FOTA? Equalisation would be fair on other teams but if he was part of the body of people that agreed it, then he should stop complaining.

The engine freeze is just nuts though. I would like to see all these silly engine rules lifed and the return of nuts out racing not economy drives. Every time I hear a radio transmission telling a driver to turn the engine down I become more and more disillusioned with the dire state of F1.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

F1 has always had good and bad engines and part of the specticle was cars improving throughout the season in both aero and engines, not just aero. I can understand that Horner is annoyed but did FOTA not have to agree the engine freeze? Is he not in FOTA? Equalisation would be fair on other teams but if he was part of the body of people that agreed it, then he should stop complaining.

The engine freeze is just nuts though. I would like to see all these silly engine rules lifed and the return of nuts out racing not economy drives. Every time I hear a radio transmission telling a driver to turn the engine down I become more and more disillusioned with the dire state of F1.

This is the problem with Horner, he is muddying Red Bulls brilliant season so far. What with the engineers and mechanics scurrying round the back of the car so as no one to "peek" at its secrets.
I mean thats not what Brawn did last year, or Mclaren the yuear before?

Its this cloak and dagger nature of his that peeves me off. He says Mercedes are 30hp better off than his Renault powerplant. PROVE IT!

Who shouted loudest the F-duct was "illegal"? yup

The guy just moans like an old woman, and he has the fastest bloody car!
Someone ought to tell the guy to enjoy these moments as Ron Dennis, Flavio Briatore and Luca dM did before him.
Personally I dont think he has anything to do with Red Bulls success. Hiring Newey is a no brainer, he had the signed cheque to do it...big deal, I think he may just be trying to justify his existence now the spotlight is focused on him.

[ISLAMATRON]

With all due respect for your knowledge of F1 I believe you only telling half the story there. The V8 move was done by the FiA on safety grounds as the races had become dangerously fast in 2004 and in 2005 they were only able to put in the one tyre rule as a stop gap.

There was very serious opposition at that time by the teams that were organized in the GPWC (later GPMA) like McLaren, Renault, BMW, Honda and Toyota. Ferrari initally sided with the GPMA teams but was bought away by Bernie in 2005 by an extra payment of 100 mil $. Generally the manufacturer based teams just wanted to continue their fight for supremacy by outspending each other and engines were the item that was high on their agenda. I'm pretty sure that the teams would have never gotten 70% for the V8 decision. It was well known at the time that Mosley only pulled BMW over to his side in December 2004 by massive threats. He told them that he would publish that their new 5-class car had initially scored a low rating in the Euro NCAP test. Theissen eventually gave in on that threat.

Mark Webber for Red Bull (a private team still running Ford Cosworth) was openly critical about the V8s.

I believe the teams had the option to accept a rev limit or the chopping of two cylinders as Islam said. They didn't like any one of the alternatives but decided to go to V8 as Islam said. But the decision was dumb with hindsight as the V8 only ran without restriction for one year.

Yes FIA's intention was to lower engine power in the name of safety, but my point was that many options were given to the teams and instead of restricting the V-10's they chose the much more expensive route of switching to V-8's, so after making that expensive and stupid decision the only way to reign in the engine costs was to employ the freeze.

No changes occur in F1 without the teams approval, we have clearly seen that with the failure of the budget cap.

Now that FOTA is in the press it is much more obvious how the rules are put together for F1, they have already banned KERS, DDD's & F-ducts, and have been discussing the 2011 for months now, when they are done they will hand them to the FIA who will rubberstamp them. It has pretty much been like this since the Fisa/Foca war, with the influence of some teams increasing and decreasing, namely Ferrari.