"The limit" of cars

[747heavy]

I did not wanted to say/prove anything, just add some background info, and clarify the 1.3-1.5 g statement for Touring cars/Sportscars.

If we leave downforce aside, things will boil down to tire CoF.
So your max. lat accel in a road/sports car will be mainly influenced by the tires you use, and the road/track conditions.

If you can create a CoF > 1 you will be able to corner with more then 1g lat accl. for a car with a given weight.

I think the limit you mentioned of 0.3g is more driver dependent/limited, then the limit of the car. Almost any road car will be able to corner with at least 0.5g on a dry road. IMHO

And, yes what you say is correct, tires are load sensitive. (CoF will change with load), but
will do so in a nonlinear way.

[Belatti]

Just as a reference, read about one of the guys who knew more about limits:

On a given day, a given circumstance, you think you have a limit. And so you touch this limit, something happens and you suddenly can go a little bit further. With your mind power, your determination, your instinct, and the experience as well, you can fly very high.

Ayrton Senna

I continuously go further and further learning about my own limitations, my body limitation, psychological limitations. It's a way of life for me.

Ayrton Senna

I don't know driving in another way which isn't risky. Each one has to improve himself. Each driver has its limit. My limit is a little bit further than other's.
Ayrton Senna

It was like I was in a tunnel. Not only the tunnel under the hotel but the whole circuit was a tunnel. I was just going and going, more and more and more and more. I was way over the limit but still able to find even more.
Ayrton Senna

[mep]

I think the limit you mentioned of 0.3g is more driver dependent/limited, then the limit of the car. Almost any road car will be able to corner with at least 0.5g on a dry road. IMHO

Yes it is. I searched for it but can't find it at the moment. It was for normal road car drivers. It says that they feel uncomfortable to go beyond 0,3g.
I wrote it regarding the question of the threat opener:

We all often hear of "the limit." "I was on the limit" "my lap was on the limit." How is it that the drivers know this? I mean, if we drive a normal road car (well if I do anyways) say I'm taking a corner fast (which I shouldn't really do ) I can kind of feel, "uh-oh. I can't turn any faster than this or I'll flip, or spin out."

I think you can't really know where the limit is when you never touch it and go beyond it. Racing is a big mind game. Regardless what car you drive a F1-car, Rally, go-cart or your normal car. When you drive towards a corner you must guess based on experience how fast you can take it. You can be either to slow or to quick and will crash out severally, get killed or injured. You never want to try it with your normal car but go on a go-cart track. Even there I must admit that I can't switch of my brain totally. raymondu999 I think you should do that. It is probably be the best answer to your question. Find the limit yourself. When you have done a few laps you might think you found it but then compare your time with others. I always wonder when they are still 2 seconds faster.

These days on F1 you have mainly tarmac run out areas and nothing happens when you go beyond the limit. Furthermore you run the same corners over and over again. Drivers have several changes to find the limit over the weekend. Maybe that’s one of the most important reasons why we have so many competitive drivers these days.

How about rally drivers?
They make their notes and then have to run a several kilometres long track over normal streets and dirt tracks. When they once go to far you can be 100% sure the car will be damaged. The pure idea to drive trough a forest with over 180km/h on gravel is pure scary. You also notice that there is just one man winning over and over again -Sebastian Loeb. Seems like at the moment there simply is no driver who can match him. You will find the speed in your mind. The best drivers will be filtered out by the average ones when the track really demands some courage and failures will get punished.

[747heavy]

well said - agree with you

[marcush.]

I agree ,but for me courage is not really the right word for it.If you have fear you will not suceed ,but taking risks will make you crash.the buzz word is confidence and an ability to ignore some facts .
A few years ago i watched a feature covering a rally in sweden or was it finland? McRae was interviewed about his off ,hitting a tree ...he described the stage,the trouble he had and how he could not hold the line in one corner ,not by much ,he even gave an explanation why that was,and simply stated : suddenly there was a tree.Then they played the onboard footage...amazingly the whole stage was in a Forest,left and right big trees and nothing else...and the guy seemed to be on the verge of crashing the whole time ....and then almost randomly the car went a tad more offline and took the tree head on ... It was really a bizzare contrast of what he said and what you saw was happening..and I don´t think that was courage it was pure ignorance and selfbelief/confidence.

[mx_tifoso]

...

...You also notice that there is just one man winning over and over again -Sebastian Loeb. Seems like at the moment there simply is no driver who can match him. You will find the speed in your mind. The best drivers will be filtered out by the average ones when the track really demands some courage and failures will get punished.

How do the other top cars compare to the Citroen? I don't follow the WRC so closely so I don't know how they stack up.

[mep]

sounds like he just woke up
Ok courage might not be the best word because you already notice some danger then.
Maybe a good (rally) driver needs the ability to put his mind in something like a state of trance. You must switch your mind of and just act. You should not think about what they you doing just do it. Everything around will be blended out even the driving of the car itself. When you think to hard about the driving you will push to hard and do more mistakes. I think that’s what Senna was talking about mentioning Monaco. It's hard to hold this state for a long time. Some minor things can attract your attention and your mind will come back. When it is a tree you are in big trouble. Your focus will go on it and so does your car. When you woke up you will have trouble to exactly remember what you have done the last minutes.
Similar thing might happen to formula drivers when some minor thing on the car changes. The over react and focus to much on the damaged car. Their lap times actually raise more than the damage would cause. After a few laps they start to ignore it and the lap times come back.

[mep]

...

...You also notice that there is just one man winning over and over again -Sebastian Loeb. Seems like at the moment there simply is no driver who can match him. You will find the speed in your mind. The best drivers will be filtered out by the average ones when the track really demands some courage and failures will get punished.

How do the other top cars compare to the Citroen? I don't follow the WRC so closely so I don't know how they stack up.

I can't tell you either. Could be better but might also be the case that a driver is more important there compared to F1.

[raymondu999]

So to summarise, drivers will drive to what they *feel* is the limit, not the actual limit of the car. I mean, if you talk of the physics, there can be only 1 fastest way to set about a lap with any setup with any car.

[lolzi]

Seeing as the drivers have driven their cars/tyres on the track, they know how a fast lap "feels" - how the steering feels when the tyres are letting go, how it feels in your seat when you are sliding just that tiny, little bit to get the best out of the car. If they feel this at just about all the corners, and they braked as late as they know they can, they hit the apex and gets the power down, they will say the lap was "on the limit".

[marcush.]

from my personal experience the feel of a car does not give a good indication of its outright speed .
very often a car that is nervous and unpredictable for the driver is giving you the feedback of being on the edge ...and that transports the feeling of being quick..but its just your own perception of being not quite on top of it .
A real quick car will be surprisingly easy to drive near the limit and as it is not surprising you or giving the impression it will bite you if you push harder you will not really feel that quick in it ...in terms of spectacle ...in that sort of car or circumstances the sensation is more like ..wow i have to shift a lot earlier now ,need
a higher gear for the corner or whatever...
of course a F1 car is always a beast in its own right so this may not be really the case in this category of machinery ...but sure if you are flying towards copse or the run down to eau rouge and the monkey on your shoulder keeps telling you: lift,lift lift
because you know that you don´t know what this beast is going to try to do with you as you flick the steering that tiny bit...thats where Hamilton will not bother and sort it out (at the cost of a few tenths)and Button will lift and think ..we should have this sorted as quick as possible so I can go flat through that one.
some guys need a machine that is inspiring their confidence some don´t give a s..t...they will go for it anyways.These days it is survivable at the cost of a lot of wings and other expensive pieces..because you inevitably will cross the border of not being able to save it...remember Hamilton throwing the car off the track in every FP1 in his first season?

[010010011010]

On the topic of rally, its also a tactical mind game. The key for a beginner (like me) is to find the limit (preferably on a wide open stage) and then keep back a bit and drive within yourself. Consitency is key. My feeling with loeb is that he's won most of the time before he even starts, in his mind. He knows hes quick and consistant, so do the others and they try to push too hard, loosing time. The more he wins the more it happens. Thats not to say hes not an exceptinal driver, he is, but this is my opinion on why hes been so unbelievably dominant.

[wrcsti]

Your average iPhone can tell you the g-forces it is subjected to. pretty sure you can find a app to do this monitoring/reporting for you

Theres apps even better. I have 2 which are great examples. Dynolicious can measure acceleration and 1/4 mile time and speed and calculate HP and TQ from those numbers. And another can record video and add the Gs felt with a digital speed redout by GPS on the video recorded. Ohh how i love technology.

[mep]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bmqdnx5 ... re=related[/youtube]
There you have it.
You need sisu.

And I need something like those amateur races here in Germany.
Why we never can have fun?