McLaren engine in the future?

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McG
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McLaren engine in the future?

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When do you think they will start making their own in F1, can't stick with Mercedes forever?
Last edited by mx_tifoso on 03 Mar 2011, 09:44, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: edited title to reflect topic
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Pup
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Re: McLaren engine

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Assuming they're going to build their own engines - which I agree is likely - I don't think they need to be in any hurry. The current agreement runs through 2015 anyway, so if they wanted to get out before that, both sides would have to agree. And there's a provision to extend that agreement if they want.

All that aside, I think it would be in their interest to keep the Merc lumps for at least a few years into the new turbo age, if only so they have experience with a soon-to-be competitor's engine. I mean, wouldn't Merc love to have a Ferrari or Renault engine or two to play with?

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JohnsonsEvilTwin
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Re: McLaren engine

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The costs involved may prove to be prohibitive. Mercedes power until at last 2015, then they may look at buying BMWs old works engine factory. Although there are more questions than answers with that solution.
Specifically logistics. Then cost, and then you have to factor in Mercedes willingness to continue supply in the face of Mclaren learning from Mercedes engine secrets.

At the moment Mclaren and Mercedes are happy with the situation, so cause for change will only happen in years to come and even then VW/Audi/Porsche may be looking to supply. Thbere will be no shortage of options for Mclaren.
More could have been done.
David Purley

copperkipper1
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Joined: 16 Feb 2011, 19:32

Re: McLaren engine

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IF they did then they would have to invest millions in development and of course a new factory away from the MTC...
It wont happen unless McLaren decide to start building lots of production supercars like ferrari.
But thats not the spirit of McLaren they build a great supercar every decade and that how it should be.

Isak
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Re: McLaren engine

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McLaren have absolutely no reason nor interest in producing their own engine with the current frozed engine regulations. It would be a (huge) waste of money.

And i don't see any point in them doing it after 2013 either.

Let's face it, having the best engine in F1 isn't as important as it used to be. The playing field has been leveled. The best and the worst engine is quite similar in power, fuel consumption and CoG - i would assume.

And to suggest McLaren would do a better job then Mercedes is well... far fetched.

Richied76
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Re: McLaren engine

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As far as i know thats what mclaren have in mind. To have a smaller, cheaper vesion of the 12c and a larger hypercar version of it to. I'll try and remeber where i read the article. May have even been autosport lastweek. If thats the case mclaren will have plenty of roadcar building experiance. I personaly dont believe they have been provided by merc engine for what..over a decade? without pulling one apart to see the insides for themselfs

Pup
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Re: McLaren engine

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There's nothing saying that McLaren would have to build the engines themselves.

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McG
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Re: McLaren engine

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Would they not be able to build the engine inhouse? Maybe in the new building they will have for the 12C?

And it might make financial sense for McLaren to be a supplier of engines too. They could make some money and share data, like Sauber do with Ferrari :p
F1 is dead.

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JohnsonsEvilTwin
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Re: McLaren engine

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Pup wrote:There's nothing saying that McLaren would have to build the engines themselves.
I think it would prudent to build it yourself. Look at Mercedes and how they lost ground on Ferrari in 2001 after Berylium was found to have been used from an outside supplier.
Yes they built it themselves, but any information now is near super secret. To keep it that way you need a tightly knit unit. Harder when you outsource...
More could have been done.
David Purley

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McG
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Re: McLaren engine

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JohnsonsEvilTwin wrote:
Pup wrote:There's nothing saying that McLaren would have to build the engines themselves.
I think it would prudent to build it yourself. Look at Mercedes and how they lost ground on Ferrari in 2001 after Berylium was found to have been used from an outside supplier.
Yes they built it themselves, but any information now is near super secret. To keep it that way you need a tightly knit unit. Harder when you outsource...
I used to rage at that! I thought it was a conspiricy against McLaren :lol:
F1 is dead.

ESPImperium
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Re: McLaren engine

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McLaren are as pointed out above, are concentrating on their Automotive side, they are looking at releasing 2 new cars in 2015, a smaller cheaper 12C that could be as much as half the price of the 12C and the bigger brother of the 12C that will be as much as triple the price of the 12C.

As ive said before, if McLaren were to produce their own engines, i have a feeling they will take over Zytec so they can use their engine plant that is already more or less set up, just more staff needed and some more specilist bits of equiptment and they are there. This means that they can also take Zytec as well and use their IP for their LMP chassis to Le Mans. And this is a thing that i think Ron is intrested in the long term once a tighter RRA comes into F1 as Ferrari have already been looking at where to re posistion up to 500 of their F1 guys for a year until a posible Ferrari 2013 entry into LMP1 Le Mans.

Id love to see McLaren duel it out with Ferrari in F1 and Le Mans Series and GT racing as well. Who wouldnt like to see that. Its just the way i am looking at it from where i am. I have a feeling that will be the way the future or motorsport will look with Porche/Audi/VW in F1 with Red Bull and Williams and in LMP1 with Audi and GT with Porche with efforts in F1 from Renault and LMP1 from Peugoet.

The only area of motorsport i can see being untouched from this duel to the end is WRC, outside the American motorsport circles.

Alexgtt
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Re: McLaren engine

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With McLaren looking to sell 2000/year 12c's in the first few years of production, rising to 4000+/year within 5, I'd say they'll be looking to make their own F1 engine in 5 years time. If that works there will be plenty of finance around and they have plenty of model diversity to come. Maybe buying Zytec or a similar company but one way or another you can bet that's Ron's long term plan.

They aren't saying who the technical partner for the 12c engine is but maybe they'll be in on the plan (Ricardo).........

Martin Keene
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Re: McLaren engine

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I'm not sure if McLaren have said who the partner for the 12C's engine is, but it is widely know to be Ricardo, in fact they have just built a new engine assembly plant at their Shoreham Technical Centre.

The plant is capable of building 4000 engines a year, not all for McLaren, but McLaren is the lead customer for the plant.

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WhiteBlue
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Re: McLaren engine

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It is a common myth with McLaren fans that Mercedes and McLaren have an unconditional supply deal until 2015. This is not true. Under certain conditions McLaren could be a Mercedes customer until that time.
Mercedes press release 16.11.2009 wrote:source
The partnership between McLaren Mercedes has been in place since 1995 and ended its 15th joint Formula 1 season in 2009. The change to the form of cooperation is taking place by mutual agreement. Mercedes-Benz and McLaren will continue to co-operate with each other and the supply of engines could continue until 2015.
But that is far from certain. The previous partnership agreement between the companies extends until the end of the year 2011. Then McLaren's exclusivity and veto rights for F1 engines come to an end as the Mercedes share holding in the McLaren group. It is clear from the Mercedes 2009 press releases that Mercedes can stop supplying McLaren if they see the need for such a move. Equally McLaren can select a new source of engines.

The question is why should any of the two parties terminate the current deal? It will not make any sense for next year. McLaren cannot find a better engine and Mercedes may need McLaren victories to continue a success story. There is some limited sense for McLaren in building an own engine for 2013. I reckon they will probably do this with a competent partner, but if it goes wrong they will probably try to retain an option to run the turbo Mercedes.

Something that has always been humbug is the idea to buy the BMW F1 engine team. There was never such a thing as the BMW F1 engine factory. The engine teams were distributed across many locations in Munich and Landshut. The core parts of the engine were manufactured in Landshut where a lot of BMW high tech projects are located. Among others all the high tech light alloy casting

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is done there but they also do things like the Rolls Royce aluminum raw chassis there.

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The development team was partly pulled together from Motorsport GmbH but also from the FIZ (Corporate Development and Research Center). These teams have long been broken up and dedicated to other projects. Beside intellectual property on paper and disks there is nothing McLaren could buy from BMW. They could head hunt the former employee list of BMW F1 but whatever could have been gained from that will have been done by other parties long ago.

The question if an own engine makes sense to have from 2013 will partly be decided by the RRA negotiations. It is obvious that the independent teams will try to limit the capability of engine suppliers to run away with a big competitive advantage. As the independents have the majority in the F1 commission they will probably be able to set all technical and sporting rules. They will only get a signature under an engine RRA - or a comprehensive budget cap including engines - if they offer terms that can be accepted by the manufacturers. I guess the framework for that is already fixed in its majority. In the fulness of time it will be revealed and we will also learn what McLaren plans for 2013-2017.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

gibells
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Re: McLaren engine

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Great post WB. That's very informative. I have a feeling Ron Dennis's plans require that he makes his own F1 engines. It would be quite feasible to go the Mercedes route and takeover an existing engine manufacturer and pump money/resources at it. No one, even the guys in the know, is bothered that Mercedes effort was Ilmor and not Stuttgart's. So based on that logic I'm sure McLaren wouldn't lose too much face acquiring a smaller player. They had just better be good, thats all.

ESP mentioned Zytec as a partner. How feasible would it be to extend the Ricardo Partnership into a racing one? Is Ricardo in any way set up to manufacture race engines? I am aware that they have many commercial automotive clients, but none, I don't think anyway, that would baulk at being associated with McLaren.

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