Senna was a likeable character. And there was Belestre of course...andrew wrote:Something I have never understood is that these incidents which are debatable are constantly dredged up yet blatently Senna ramming Prost off the track in Japan is held in great reverence. Why is that?
Yep – ramming people is allowed as long as you're not german – both Vettel ramming Button and Schumacher ramming Hill/Vileneuve proves this.Sebp wrote:Senna was a likeable character. And there was Belestre of course...andrew wrote:Something I have never understood is that these incidents which are debatable are constantly dredged up yet blatently Senna ramming Prost off the track in Japan is held in great reverence. Why is that?
Wikipedia has done it for you already!mep wrote:+1andrew wrote: Something I have never understood is that these incidents which are debatable are constantly dredged up yet blatently Senna ramming Prost off the track in Japan is held in great reverence. Why is that?
Not to mention cheats done by Alonso, which are moreover on a totally different level. I should start to search my Alonso cheat and misdoing list because I am sure I can add some new ones to that soon.
Wikipedia wrote:ControversiesAt the 2003 European Grand Prix, David Coulthard and McLaren managing director Martin Whitmarsh accused Alonso of giving Coulthard a brake test. This was in relation to a passage of racing towards the end of the race when Coulthard was trying to overtake Alonso, who was holding him up. Coulthard swerved off the track and into retirement during an attempted overtake. After talking to the drivers and viewing telemetry and video data, the FIA stewards decided that the incident did not warrant any "further judicial action".
At the 2006 Hungarian Grand Prix, Alonso was involved in an incident in which he brake tested Red Bull Racing test driver Robert Doornbos in the second free practice session. The stewards decided that Alonso's actions were "unnecessary, unacceptable and dangerous", and awarded him a one second time penalty to be applied to his fastest lap time in each of the qualifying sessions.[20]
After a separate incident from the same race, when Michael Schumacher was asked whether he thought Alonso deliberately slowed down so that Schumacher had to pass him under red flags in practice, Schumacher replied, "You said that, I didn't."
In the 2006 Italian Grand Prix, after stewards ruled Alonso had potentially blocked Felipe Massa in Saturday qualifying and relegated him five places on the starting grid, Alonso stated "I love the sport, love the fans coming here — a lot of them from Spain but I don't consider Formula One like a sport any more".
In the qualifying for the 2007 Hungarian Grand Prix, while both McLarens were in the pits, Alonso remained stationary in the McLaren pit for a few seconds. This delayed the then provisional pole sitter and team-mate Lewis Hamilton long enough to prevent him from getting another 'hot lap' in. Alonso then went on to claim pole.[54] McLaren boss Ron Dennis later said the team had got "out of sequence" when Hamilton did not as agreed allow Alonso past earlier in the qualifying session. He added that Alonso was "under the control of his engineer" when he was waiting in the pit lane. However, Alonso was subsequently given a five-place grid penalty and his McLaren team were docked the 15 constructors' World Championship points they would have earned in the race.
As a result of this investigation, it emerged that some team members within McLaren, among them Alonso, were aware of confidential information belonging to the Ferrari team. This information was commented on to Alonso by McLaren test driver Pedro de la Rosa who had also received information from McLaren chief designer Mike Coughlan. The email contained text suggesting that Alonso was surprised by the data and doubted its authenticity. According to the "spygate" related email exchanges between Alonso and de la Rosa, it was clear that Alonso knew about Ferrari's pit strategies in the Australian Grand Prix and Bahrain Grand Prix. Alonso finished 2nd and 5th respectively in those races. Ron Dennis told the FIA about the case during the Hungarian Grand Prix. Amid media allegations that Alonso threatened Dennis with reporting the team to FIA himself if he was not given number one driver status, Ron Dennis stated in a televised interview that there had been an argument, and that Alonso had said something in the heat of the moment but immediately apologised. This was when Dennis found out about Ferrari data and immediately informed the FIA. Pitlane sources have suggested, from published FIA stewards data, that an argument involving reporting the McLaren team to the FIA was prompted by the fact that there was no stewards' investigation regarding the qualifying pitlane incident until Anthony and Lewis Hamilton made a formal complaint on the Saturday evening; costing Alonso a five-place grid penalty and loss of Constructors' Points for the team. FIA then revealed that it had had knowledge of the Spygate case thanks to a slip made by Coughlan.
In what became known in the media as "Crashgate", Renault allegedly ordered Alonso's teammate Nelson Piquet, Jr. to crash at the 2008 Singapore Grand Prix, causing a safety-car incident at a moment where Alonso would get tremendous benefit from his race strategy, putting him towards the front of the field, and giving him a fighting chance to win the race, after a number of opponents (Felipe Massa, Robert Kubica and Kimi Räikkönen to name a few) suffered. However, the FIA confirmed that no evidence had shown that Alonso had knowledge of the plan, and neither did many of the personal mechanics of both drivers.
In the 2010 German Grand Prix at Hockenheim, Alonso became involved in a controversy with team-mate Massa, as Ferrari were accused of using team orders during the race. The incident started when Massa was leading the race and Ferrari engineer Rob Smedley said "Fernando is faster than you. Can you confirm you understood that message?". Shortly after this, Massa slowed down and was overtaken by Alonso in what appeared to be team orders. Shortly after the race notable people of the senior personnel in Ferrari, Massa and Alonso were summoned to the stewards. The matter was then referred to the FIA World Motor Sport Council. and Ferrari were given a $100,000 fine but the result of the race was unchanged.
In the 2010 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix, Alonso was seen gesticulating furiously at Vitaly Petrov on the slowing down lap in front of TV cameras, and initially it seemed that he had blamed the young Russian for costing him the world crown as he ended up being unable to find a way past the Renault driver while race winner Sebastian Vettel was crowned world champion. However, Alonso denied accusations that he had accused him of denying the Spaniard the title.
Plus it was seen as revenge for Prost trying to take him out and the abominable way in which he was treated by the FIA the previous year. The FIA effectively stripped him of a World Championship, gifting it to Prost, the previous year, and this move was the reversal of it.Sebp wrote:Senna was a likeable character. And there was Belestre of course...andrew wrote:Something I have never understood is that these incidents which are debatable are constantly dredged up yet blatently Senna ramming Prost off the track in Japan is held in great reverence. Why is that?
Damon Hill admitted that he shouldn't have made the move as he should have patiently waited for Schumacher to retire and not have given him the chance to hit him. It was nothing to do with it being a rash move, and everything about giving Schumacher the opportunity to create a collision.andrew wrote:Not that I believe.
Damon Hill made a move which he has snce admitted that he shouldn't have made as it was desperate. Schumacher took the correct line as he was entitled to do so and Hill rashly lunged up the inside.
As for Jerez, explain why Villeneuve had his front left off the track before hitting Schumacher?
Monaco was driver error. Simply went too fast into the corner. It is obvious from the on-board camera that Schumachers wheel was turned to the right as normal so he was intending to go round the corner.
Something I have never understood is that these incidents which are debatable are constantly dredged up yet blatently Senna ramming Prost off the track in Japan is held in great reverence. Why is that?
Can you explain all that?Steward Joaquin Verdegay commented, "He performed some absolutely unnecessary and pathetic counter-steering, and that lasted five metres, until there was no more chances of going through the turn normally. He lost control of the car while travelling at 16km/h. That's something completely unjustifiable."
I never said that Villeneuve hit Schumacher but I qu8ery why he was off the track? At worst it was a racing incident blown well out of proportion. Villeneuve actually stated afterwards that he thought his move was a risk. He is quoted as saying "I knew I was taking a big risk. I knew right away Michael was out."myurr wrote:Can you explain all that?
Senna was a poor sportsman, I agree. Does that make MS better? No it doesn't, he's worse.andrew wrote:Not to me he wasn't. Pure arrogance...
That doesn't sound likely at all.andrew wrote:The video you show does not convince me at all. I have formed my opinions at the time of these incidents and have yet to see anything that will convince me to change my opinion.
Absolutely allowed, but to hold up the stewards verdict on Jerez 97 as gospel but then to dismiss a different ruling because you don't agree with it is hypocritical at best.andrew wrote:I agree with the stewards for Jerez 97 but disagree regarding Monaco 06 it is, I believe, allowed.
Then forgive me if I feel your view on the matter is somewhat biased. To me it was clear that the car was not oversteering at all and that the car was turning and would have made the turn had he not pretended he needed to counter steer.andrew wrote:The video you show does not convince me at all. I have formed my opinions at the time of these incidents and have yet to see anything that will convince me to change my opinion.
Not hypocritiacal at all, just being objective.myurr wrote:Absolutely allowed, but to hold up the stewards verdict on Jerez 97 as gospel but then to dismiss a different ruling because you don't agree with it is hypocritical at best.andrew wrote:I agree with the stewards for Jerez 97 but disagree regarding Monaco 06 it is, I believe, allowed.
Perhaps from one angle, but no more than the opinions from the opposite angle.myurr wrote: Then forgive me if I feel your view on the matter is somewhat biased.
you can't be seriousandrew wrote:I never said that Villeneuve hit Schumacher but I qu8ery why he was off the track? At worst it was a racing incident blown well out of proportion. Villeneuve actually stated afterwards that he thought his move was a risk. He is quoted as saying "I knew I was taking a big risk. I knew right away Michael was out."myurr wrote:Can you explain all that?
Monaco was simple. he overshot the corner. It was the very end of the qualifying session. he was pushing to get accros the start/finish line in time and made a mistake.
