Aston Martin wants hyper-car to be faster than F1 cars

[nmoleiro]

A crazy ideia has crossed my mind before.... Formula RedBull!!! Anyone?!?

I know its a long shot and hard to be true, but it would be a slap in some faces around F1, if it is their long term goal.

[SR71]

A crazy ideia has crossed my mind before.... Formula RedBull!!! Anyone?!?

I know its a long shot and hard to be true, but it would be a slap in some faces around F1, if it is their long term goal.

I think that is essentially what RB is creating. They will have 99 cars, you have to imagine that if the car is faster than an F1 car, these F1 pilots are going to have a sniff.

You wouldnt watch 5-10 top F1 drivers rip these spec cars around a track? I would. Could instantly make F1 boring.

[VARIANT | one]

So, it's going to be an autonomous car then?

Road car weights are given without driver, f1 weights are with a driver. T̶o̶ ̶c̶o̶m̶p̶a̶r̶e̶ ̶a̶p̶p̶l̶e̶s̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶a̶p̶p̶l̶e̶s̶,̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶m̶u̶s̶t̶ ̶e̶i̶t̶h̶e̶r̶ ̶s̶u̶b̶t̶r̶a̶c̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶a̶v̶e̶r̶a̶g̶e̶ ̶f̶1̶ ̶d̶r̶i̶v̶e̶r̶ ̶w̶e̶i̶g̶h̶t̶ ̶f̶r̶o̶m̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶f̶1̶ ̶c̶a̶r̶, or add it to the road car.

Yeah, it was sarcasm, you ALWAYS add the weight of the driver as it's a functional component of the physics going on. This gets really exacerbated when talking extremely light cars and/or motorcycles.

[SR71]

So, it's going to be an autonomous car then?

Road car weights are given without driver, f1 weights are with a driver. T̶o̶ ̶c̶o̶m̶p̶a̶r̶e̶ ̶a̶p̶p̶l̶e̶s̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶a̶p̶p̶l̶e̶s̶,̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶m̶u̶s̶t̶ ̶e̶i̶t̶h̶e̶r̶ ̶s̶u̶b̶t̶r̶a̶c̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶a̶v̶e̶r̶a̶g̶e̶ ̶f̶1̶ ̶d̶r̶i̶v̶e̶r̶ ̶w̶e̶i̶g̶h̶t̶ ̶f̶r̶o̶m̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶f̶1̶ ̶c̶a̶r̶, or add it to the road car.

Yeah, it was sarcasm, you ALWAYS add the weight of the driver as it's a functional component of the physics going on. This gets really exacerbated when talking extremely light cars and/or motorcycles.

Oh no mommy he forgot the driver weight when considering a performance result based upon stats never before achieved on a platform never before capable of said results.

Honestly given the extremety of the expected results, bickering over driver weight shows sever lack of comprehension of the task at hand. For both sides of the argument.

It's like bickering about the paint job of a LMP1 cars performance.

[Nickel]

Honestly given the extremety of the expected results, bickering over driver weight shows sever lack of comprehension of the task at hand. For both sides of the argument.

F1 with driver (assuming 900hp) is 1280hp/tonne
Without 70kg of driver that figure climbs to 1430hp/tonne.

Don't tell me this is the same significance as paint.

[Nickel]

Yeah, it was sarcasm, you ALWAYS add the weight of the driver as it's a functional component of the physics going on. This gets really exacerbated when talking extremely light cars and/or motorcycles.

You cannot add it to a car for which you know neither the raw power number, nor the total weight. The only figure I've seen is HP/tonne.

Until we know more figures for the AM/RB the only way I see to get apples to apples is to subtract driver weight from the f1 figures.

[SR71]

Honestly given the extremety of the expected results, bickering over driver weight shows sever lack of comprehension of the task at hand. For both sides of the argument.

F1 with driver (assuming 900hp) is 1280hp/tonne
Without 70kg of driver that figure climbs to 1430hp/tonne.

Don't tell me this is the same significance as paint.

No you're right, incredible how sensitive these cars are to weight. Never ceases to amaze me. AM/RB have a real challenge at hand.

Unlimited downforce should make up for a lot though.

[DiogoBrand]

There's no such thing as unlimited downforce. It's either limited by regulations, or by nature, in the form of drag, stalling wings, and other countless factors.
Another thing to consider is that with a heavier car than an F1, let's assume that this car, with driver included, will weigh 1000Kg, while an F1 with low fuel weighs at around 710. Having the weight increase by 40%, you can make up for the high speed lateral accelerations with 40% more DF, give or take some because we all know it's not that linear. But in low speed, where you still rely on mechanical grip way more than aero grip, you'd still be at a deficit. Not to mention that the tyres would need to have a coefficient of grip 40 higher to cope with the lateral acceleration, which I don't think it's that simple. I mean, if they could make tyres with 40% more grip they most likely would already be using them in F1. And then you'd need a 40% higher resistance, both from the carcass, as the tyre walls would need to handle those enormous loads, and by the rubber itself, which can't get into plastic deformation within those pressures. And then there's the need for 40% more power, which is tricky because it's not that common to see engines with 1260 HP (assuming 900 for F1, which I think is lower than reality) in production vehicles, especially the ones under 1000Kg.
And the final bit, for all this to work, the car would need to weigh in at 1000Kg with driver, while having 40% more power, 40% more downforce, 40% more mechanical grip, cope with road safety laws, being able to carry a passenger after it breaks the Silverstone WR and being able to run on public roads.
I can't say it's impossible to achieve all this, in fact no one can. What I can say is that it's a bit unlikely.

[Nickel]

To be fair they did say faster than an F1 car, not which F1 car.

[DiogoBrand]

To be fair they did say faster than an F1 car, not which F1 car.

As funny as it sounds that's exactly the sort of stuff I expect them to pull when they finally release such car, if they ever do so.
In my opinion this is nothing but PR bullshit to promote their new partnership "which brings Aston Martin back to F1 after I don't now how many years", even though their full presence in Formula One is restricted to a sticker at the back of a car.
Either that or it's Red Bull trying to make pressure for rule changes that could make F1 faster and possibly give them a chance to be competitive again, the same way that Bernie's "budget engine" was nothing but pressure for manufacturers to make cheaper Power Units.

In the end, it's all PR bullshit.

[SR71]

There's no such thing as unlimited downforce. It's either limited by regulations, or by nature, in the form of drag, stalling wings, and other countless factors.
Another thing to consider is that with a heavier car than an F1, let's assume that this car, with driver included, will weigh 1000Kg, while an F1 with low fuel weighs at around 710. Having the weight increase by 40%, you can make up for the high speed lateral accelerations with 40% more DF, give or take some because we all know it's not that linear. But in low speed, where you still rely on mechanical grip way more than aero grip, you'd still be at a deficit. Not to mention that the tyres would need to have a coefficient of grip 40 higher to cope with the lateral acceleration, which I don't think it's that simple. I mean, if they could make tyres with 40% more grip they most likely would already be using them in F1. And then you'd need a 40% higher resistance, both from the carcass, as the tyre walls would need to handle those enormous loads, and by the rubber itself, which can't get into plastic deformation within those pressures. And then there's the need for 40% more power, which is tricky because it's not that common to see engines with 1260 HP (assuming 900 for F1, which I think is lower than reality) in production vehicles, especially the ones under 1000Kg.
And the final bit, for all this to work, the car would need to weigh in at 1000Kg with driver, while having 40% more power, 40% more downforce, 40% more mechanical grip, cope with road safety laws, being able to carry a passenger after it breaks the Silverstone WR and being able to run on public roads.
I can't say it's impossible to achieve all this, in fact no one can. What I can say is that it's a bit unlikely.

This is generally a true statement when something new is tried out. Has applied throughout all of time and will continue to apply long in the future.

It's safe to say nobody has tried this before - there are no parallels here.

-40% more downforce shouldnt be hard at all, they are unrestrained here. F1 cars produce lots of downforce yes, but the formula is extremely limited. AM/RB are specifically trying to highlight this - when you think about whats possible with respect to downforce, F1 cars are quite a joke actually.

-1260 HP (or abouts) in a lightweight production car is quickly becoming quite standard for hypercars.

-Mech grip shouldnt be an issue. I understand wanting to use F1 tires available grip as some sort of standard but we all know they are no standard and are rubbish. Pirelli have a contract and create a product to match the needs of the client. Surely, AM/RB will put out a new contract with new requirements and some vendor will create a tire to match the performance envelope of the car.

Thanks for breaking this down into numbers around 1000kg car. It really highlights how doable this is with the right team and resources.

[DiogoBrand]

This is generally a true statement when something new is tried out. Has applied throughout all of time and will continue to apply long in the future.

It's safe to say nobody has tried this before - there are no parallels here.

-40% more downforce shouldnt be hard at all, they are unrestrained here. F1 cars produce lots of downforce yes, but the formula is extremely limited. AM/RB are specifically trying to highlight this - when you think about whats possible with respect to downforce, F1 cars are quite a joke actually.

-1260 HP (or abouts) in a lightweight production car is quickly becoming quite standard for hypercars.

-Mech grip shouldnt be an issue. I understand wanting to use F1 tires available grip as some sort of standard but we all know they are no standard and are rubbish. Pirelli have a contract and create a product to match the needs of the client. Surely, AM/RB will put out a new contract with new requirements and some vendor will create a tire to match the performance envelope of the car.

Thanks for breaking this down into numbers around 1000kg car. It really highlights how doable this is with the right team and resources.

You can't say it's doable or not unless know what's the friction coefficient of an F1 tyre, and have no idea what it takes to achieve something 40% higher than that.
Hypercars with 1260HP aren't standard.
Hypercars under 1000Kg aren't standard.
Hypercars with 1260HP and under 1000Kg are definitely not standard, and far away from being standard.

That just goes to show how someone can look ridiculous when arguing without understanding the numbers, but since you make everything up to suit your opinion I'm just losing my time by pointing this out.

[Nickel]

I was just about to ask for an example of a sub 1000kg, 1280hp HyperCar. I can think of none.

[SR71]

I was just about to ask for an example of a sub 1000kg, 1280hp HyperCar. I can think of none.

I never said sub 1000kgs.

Someone else added that in their own.

Koenigsegg is breathing down 1000kgs though. I suspect stripping one into a track spec could be close...

[SR71]

This is generally a true statement when something new is tried out. Has applied throughout all of time and will continue to apply long in the future.

It's safe to say nobody has tried this before - there are no parallels here.

-40% more downforce shouldnt be hard at all, they are unrestrained here. F1 cars produce lots of downforce yes, but the formula is extremely limited. AM/RB are specifically trying to highlight this - when you think about whats possible with respect to downforce, F1 cars are quite a joke actually.

-1260 HP (or abouts) in a lightweight production car is quickly becoming quite standard for hypercars.

-Mech grip shouldnt be an issue. I understand wanting to use F1 tires available grip as some sort of standard but we all know they are no standard and are rubbish. Pirelli have a contract and create a product to match the needs of the client. Surely, AM/RB will put out a new contract with new requirements and some vendor will create a tire to match the performance envelope of the car.

Thanks for breaking this down into numbers around 1000kg car. It really highlights how doable this is with the right team and resources.

You can't say it's doable or not unless know what's the friction coefficient of an F1 tyre, and have no idea what it takes to achieve something 40% higher than that.
Hypercars with 1260HP aren't standard.
Hypercars under 1000Kg aren't standard.
Hypercars with 1260HP and under 1000Kg are definitely not standard, and far away from being standard.

That just goes to show how someone can look ridiculous when arguing without understanding the numbers, but since you make everything up to suit your opinion I'm just losing my time by pointing this out.

Well i was misleading you a bit. Hypercars aren't standard in any sense of the term so not really a valid statement to say something is standard about them.

unfortunatly for you though, the One:1 (1300kg 1300hp) is a production car. So is the Hennessy GT (1200kg 1400hp).

These cars weren't created with the same performance goals AM/RB have set so it's not fair to directly compare them but they are an easy marker for what small limited resource companies can do - AM/RB have the best aero team in the world on thier side and deep pockets.