Toyota's Direction...

[hollowBallistix]

I may be missing the point completly, but after seeing Toyota's latest TV advert where their pushing their Hybrid Vechicles, i'm really struggling as to why they are going in this direction.

Take the Auris Hybrid for example, it's not exactly a nice car to look at, it's not really a nice car to drive either, and the cost brand new is rather expensive, and the MPG return isn't exactly great either

If compared to a VW Golf Blue Motion, the golf looks better, performs slightly better, is nicer to drive, will have better residuals, MPG is slightly better than the Auris & the cost new is around £2,000 cheaper

I can see the point in the Honda Clarity, and more refined diesels, just Hybrids in the sense that Toyota are banging out seem to be a dead end

[Pup]

Because hybrids are an easier sell. People don't want to be 'green' - they want to be conspicuously green.

A diesel might be green, but it doesn't say green.

People are dumb; companies take advantage of dumb people. It's what makes the world go round.

[horse]

Toyota obviously have a world leading power train they are looking to scale and so they are pushing it to all models. The benefits of hybrids depends on the driving. In stop starty town driving they are very good. For high speed work they are much less good (mainly as they are just pulled along by the usually anaemic engine). Moves to diesel hybrids (Peaguot, Citreon, Volvo) might solve this, but remember the US (one of toyota's biggest markets) is still a bit frightened of diesel.

I think they true benefits of hybrids will not become significant until plug-ins are common place. Toyota might not quite be there yet, but their upscaling will allow them to provide to this future market at lower cost than many of their competitors.

[hollowBallistix]

I just think their investing in a technology that will be surpassed by competitors, they have had this technology now for a few years in the Prius, and it's not been great, rather expensive piece of kit for no gains, except for being percieved as "green"

The volvo diesel hybrids seem to offer a much better overall product, offering a MPG double that of the Toyota product and can also operate in performace mode if one wishes, and from what I can gather, Toyota are not working on a diesel hybrid.

So their current Hybrid range and the ones over the next couple of years are already being beaten on mpg, performance & emmissions by diesel engines, and when the diesel hybrids start to roll out, then I think they'll get trounced !

[ESPImperium]

I think they have missed a trick as they could have stayed in F1, at a reduced cost to them and put KERS and HERS on their cars, and showcased a technology that is being both raced and driven on the road.

I just done see the sense in their direction without a showcase for their technology. I think its only a matter of time before the guys in Tokyo want to go racing again in F1, weather its a engine supplier or as a fully blown constructor again, i don't know.

[Shrek]

i have a question then (most likely stupid, but what else is new for me), why are us american's afraid of diesel

[RacingManiac]

I just done see the sense in their direction without a showcase for their technology. I think its only a matter of time before the guys in Tokyo want to go racing again in F1, weather its a engine supplier or as a fully blown constructor again, i don't know.

Or Sportscar like Le Mans.....they are supplying engines again this year....and they still own their Colonge facility....

[RacingManiac]

i have a question then (most likely stupid, but what else is new for me), why are us american's afraid of diesel

I think typically they are still associated with smoky trucks and buses that smells bad. Though I think thats changing as you are seeing more and more diesel European cars in VW, Mercedes and BMWs here...

[Pup]

A. Far fewer urban/suburban gas stations here offer diesel.
B. Diesel is way expensive here.
C. Diesels are typically priced far higher here than their gasoline counterparts.
D. Diesel engines offered here are most always underpowered compared to their gasoline counterparts.
E. Gasoline is still cheap here compared to most elsewhere.

Again - people don't buy hybrids or diesels to save money. If they did, fewer would get sold since the math doesn't work anyway.

For example, a BMW 335d costs $2,100 more than a 335i, with 33 less horsepower. Factor the economy and the relative fuel prices, and the diesel is .02066 cents per mile more economical to drive. So you've got to drive 101,646 miles before your diesel investment even begins to pay off. So the only reason to buy a diesel is to feel smug, and it's hard to feel smug about a diesel. Therefore - Toyota makes hybrids.

Don't apply EU economics to the US.

[RacingManiac]

Strangely diesel makes more sense in Canada...In US, we get diesel priced at premium octane gas level, where as in Canada they are at regular Octane level prices....(although keep in mind, Canadian are still paying more overall than US)...

TDI Golf is as much as GTI Golf in US.....Although they can hit 40mpg where as I am struggling to hit 30 in the GTI...

[hollowBallistix]

Golf TDI 2.0l in US = $23,225 or £14,000

Golf TDI 2.0l in UK = £20,320 or $33,500

so there is a massive difference in Vehicle pricing in the UK & US, now if the Golf BlueMotion was for sale in the US then your probably looking at a price of $20,600

that car returns a combined fuel consumption of 74mpg, the Toyota Prius returns 54mpg, the golf is quicker and cost around $3,000 less

plus, looking at this: http://www.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/gdu/gasdiesel.asp

it seems diesel prices are comparible to normal petrol prices per gallon in the US, so again, $3.56 per gallon of petrol versus $3.91 per gallon of diesel, so per mile the Golf would cost $0.053 and the Prius $0.066

So the Golf performs better, costs less to buy & costs less to own, and I would imagine has better residual values

[Pup]

Yes, but when compared to the Toyota Alsonotsoldhere, the VW really pales in comparison.

[hollowBallistix]

I understand that the Golf is not currently sold there, but a comparison of a 335d against the 335i is not a good when we were talking about the Toyota Hybrids and the fact that there are diesel cars that are greener & cost less than that technology.

By comparing the Prius & Golf,it shows that EU economics can be applied to the US, christ, the car would be cheaper to run, cheaper to buy and is actually greener, but it's not being sold there, that says a lot of how mental the US market is for cars.

And back on the subject of the BMW comparison, the whole point in purchasing a diesel is that you wouldn't get a 335d, if you had any sense then the 330d would be the diesel to get over the 335i

Even though it's 60 bhp down, it's got 120 Nm more torque, which is far more usable once the car is rolling, there's a 6.0s 0-62mph time over a 5.5s for the petrol and it'll return 50mpg over 33mpg for the petrol, and the initial costing.....just realised the 330d is another model range that is not sold in US ! damn it ! stupid market it is

[Jersey Tom]

Because hybrids are an easier sell. People don't want to be 'green' - they want to be conspicuously green.

A diesel might be green, but it doesn't say green.

People are dumb; companies take advantage of dumb people. It's what makes the world go round.

One of the most accurate posts in all of F1T.

[xpensive]

...which gives me another opportunity to knock this hybrid/KERS nonsense. The contribution energy-wise is miniscule, harvesting the energy equivalent of 0.012 liters of gasoline per 3-5 km might be relevant in formula one where fractions of seconds count, but in the real world, get the f**k outa here.