Red Bull RB8 Renault (pre-launch speculation)

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter does not belong here.

Post Tue Jul 12, 2011 2:10 pm

Hey guys. I'm REALLY sorry about opening this thread so early, but hear me out please.

The RB7 is the same family and lineage as the RB6 and RB5. It looks very similar to its two elder siblings, actually. The McLaren for the past 3 years have been rather different, and the Ferraris from F60, to F10 and F150 are somewhere in between in terms of hereditary appearances.

This gives the benefit of stability, and makes past data a bit more relevant to this year's. The drivers are more used to the car too. I don't think McLaren constantly changing the fundamental design principles really gives a good base in terms of starting a weekend, but I'm no pro and I wouldn't know that for sure.

But I'm a firm believer that there's a limit to just how much potential anything can have, and surely, with 2 years of constant evolution and perfecting, the RB7 is close to the limit? I wanted to get some opinions on what people feel - will they go somewhat radical and do something to change the design or just continue on with an evolution?
Last edited by Steven on Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Added pre-launch denominator
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raymondu999
 
Joined: 4 Feb 2010

Post Tue Jul 12, 2011 2:35 pm

Well I think a lot of resource will be put into uprating the performance and reliability of their KERS (while keeping it small that is). I suspect this is an "easy" (not easy, but there is time to be had) upgrade for the RB8.

From the aero side, I personally think RB will be looking at the Williams. There is a trend of RB rear ends to get tighter and tighter and the Williams tiny box approach would certainly allow that approach to be taken forward. I think it depends if they are willing to risk the reliability issues that Williams have had with there concept this year. If they could shrink the rear even more, then perhaps they could maybe run even more rake than this year.

I guess we'll have to see what next years rules look like properly first tho and for clever chaps like scarbs to get his journalist teeth into the potential of them.
"Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words." - Chuang Tzu
horse
 
Joined: 23 Oct 2009
Location: Edinburgh, UK

Post Tue Jul 12, 2011 2:46 pm

Yes. Scarbs' rendition of an RB6 to 2011 rules was almost spot on a RB7. The launch spec, at least. Interesting though about that Williams gearbox and rear end suggestion; it could help the next step in the evolution, and if speed came from a tight coke bottle section alone, then that would be the logical progression for the RB8 as it seems even tighter than the RB7. I guess we'll never know until 2012, and we'll have to just find out then :wink:

Regarding the Williams though - right now the design is rather rubbish - I wonder if that would stop Mr. Newey from copying it.
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raymondu999
 
Joined: 4 Feb 2010

Post Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:20 pm

So far the rules are looking stable, only the detail changes arround the exhausts, the mating of cameras to the exact appendix location with no etreme loactions on the nose of the car, the introduction of the allowance of having 5 cameras on the car as to the current 4.

The rules set for 2012 wont really change too much.

The only major change that has been talked about i can think of is the outlawing of the current breed of extreme high noses, basically go fron what we have at present to what Brawn had in 2009 is the only major change. However i may have my wires crossed somewhere, this could be for 2013.

Id ba happy to say that the RB8 will be a continuation of the RB5, RB6 & RB7 linage that has just gottn stronger and stronger. However How can you improve what already is unbeatable.
ESPImperium
 
Joined: 5 Apr 2008
Location: Glasgow, Scotland

Post Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:39 pm

ESPImperium wrote:Id ba happy to say that the RB8 will be a continuation of the RB5, RB6 & RB7 linage that has just gottn stronger and stronger. However How can you improve what already is unbeatable.

Thinking back to my youth, the RB5/6/7 series reminds me of another Newey creation : the FW-14/14b/15c series ...

The FW-14 won a few races and ran the championship close to the end of the season, just like the RB5.

The FW-14b was the supreme car of its day, much like the RB6, however Red Bull made much more work out of securing the championship.

The FW-15c is still one of my favourite ever F1 cars and there was never any real doubt about the fact that it was going to win the championship (much like the RB7). After their performances over the previous few seasons, like Red Bull today, it would have taken a very brave man to bet against Williams carrying their form through to the next season.

Then came the FW-16, and it all started coming apart ...

All I'm saying is that the mighty have fallen before and will do again : it is just a question of when, not if.

Look at 2005 : how many people would have taken a bet on Alonso for that championship based on the relative 2002/2003/2004 season form? Not many ...

The RB8 may well (and in all probability will) be a blinding car, but pride comes before a fall and the tyranny of Murphy is the penalty for hubris.

Personally, I just hope for a more competitive season at the front ;)
"Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine ..."
gridwalker
 
Joined: 27 Mar 2009
Location: Sheffield, UK

Post Wed Jul 13, 2011 2:42 am

Im just putting this out there, a lower nose will dramatically influence the way in which the air flow will travel around the car, might be seeing a big change in the car itself
"I continuously go further and further learning about my own limitations, my body limitations, psychological limitations. It's a way of life for me." - Ayrton Senna
Robbobnob
 
Joined: 21 May 2010
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Post Wed Jul 13, 2011 2:52 am

I think that's a very valid point that you bring up Rob. But I think in terms of tightening up the rear, or however they do it, getting air to the two rear wings, that would still bring a good laptime gain in terms of downforce
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raymondu999
 
Joined: 4 Feb 2010

Post Wed Jul 13, 2011 4:56 pm

The periscope exhausts could make a big difference. Remember when the RB6 first appeared in the testing the exhaust came out of the sidepods which was conventional at the time. Then Newey switched the exhaust to the back but fooled people with a sticker in the old place.

Moving the exhaust to link with the diffuser and Renault's cold blowing was the point where RB got ahead of the others. The return to an unblown diffuser will have a big impact.

Of course, the RB7 also appears to have significant advantages above the floor and they'll play a bigger role when the under floor blowing is limited.
richard_leeds
 
Joined: 15 Apr 2009
Location: UK

Post Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:20 pm

gridwalker wrote:
ESPImperium wrote:Id ba happy to say that the RB8 will be a continuation of the RB5, RB6 & RB7 linage that has just gottn stronger and stronger. However How can you improve what already is unbeatable.

Thinking back to my youth, the RB5/6/7 series reminds me of another Newey creation : the FW-14/14b/15c series ...



Then came the FW-16, and it all started coming apart ...


In fairness, the FW-16 was the first car after the banning of the clever stuff in the FW-15 (active, TC, ABS etc.). Newey tried to keep the earlier car's aero performance with a passive suspension system and it didn't really work.

The current RBx run will probably end when the regulations change properly. Minor reg tweaks shouldn't affect the basic design too much.

I can see next year's car being the car to beat unless McLaren or Ferrari can come up with something very special in the next 6 months. I wonder if McLaren can develop their sidepods further - perhaps by making them smaller still. However, I'm not holding my breath for next year's RedBull to suddenly be in the pack rather than out in front.

I can see Vettel winning 3 titles in a row TBH...
Just_a_fan
 
Joined: 31 Jan 2010

Post Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:45 pm

richard_leeds wrote:The periscope exhausts could make a big difference. Remember when the RB6 first appeared in the testing the exhaust came out of the sidepods which was conventional at the time. Then Newey switched the exhaust to the back but fooled people with a sticker in the old place.

Moving the exhaust to link with the diffuser and Renault's cold blowing was the point where RB got ahead of the others. The return to an unblown diffuser will have a big impact.

Of course, the RB7 also appears to have significant advantages above the floor and they'll play a bigger role when the under floor blowing is limited.


I generally aggree, however the fact the exaust pipes must be cylindrical in cross section and posibly have a standardised diamater, not to mention exit 300mm rearward of the rear wheel centre line i think will have an impact on the packaging for 2012.

Im thinking that even though you can gain more downforce from a pull rod design, the new regs lend themselvs more to a traditional pushrod design.

The one thing i think will look great with the new regs is that the exhaust gasses will look spectacular coming from the rear of the car in dark areas like at Singapore or any dark grey day at Spa for instance.

The RB8 and RB9 could be domination for the next 2 years, however the fact that one thing has elapsed the 2014 rules that could make all cars look diffrently is the introduction of the 18" wheels. Whitch id have liked to have seen next year to be honest. But its too late now to moan my head off about that one.
ESPImperium
 
Joined: 5 Apr 2008
Location: Glasgow, Scotland

Post Wed Jul 13, 2011 8:29 pm

Can anyone diagram the position of the exhausts as mandated by the 2012 regs? I wonder if they can do anything funky with the exhaust and beam wing.

Regarding rule changes, isn't Newey traditionally the strongest designer on rule changes though? If we didn't change regs forever, I could see maybe his dominance ending some time 2013-2014, but if they change again, I think that's more fuel to push him to the top.
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raymondu999
 
Joined: 4 Feb 2010

Post Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:00 pm

Image

I do not own any rights etc to this picture, took it from the HRT forum of this site, but that's how I imagine the FIA want the 2012 exhausts to be.

Edit: :| Sorry I'm not sure how to do it, but it's on page 23 of the F111 forum.
ajdavison2
 
Joined: 8 Dec 2010

Post Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:05 pm

ESPImperium wrote:[exaust pipes must be cylindrical in cross section and posibly have a standardised diamater, not to mention exit 300mm rearward of the rear wheel centre line i think will have an impact on the packaging for 2012.


They've cancelled that scheme due to the length of the pipes. The 2012 rules will require a traditional periscope out of the top of the sidepod. Not sure what that'll do to McLaren L pods


http://scarbsf1.wordpress.com/2011/06/1 ... -exhausts/
richard_leeds
 
Joined: 15 Apr 2009
Location: UK

Post Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:52 pm

richard_leeds wrote:
ESPImperium wrote:[exaust pipes must be cylindrical in cross section and posibly have a standardised diamater, not to mention exit 300mm rearward of the rear wheel centre line i think will have an impact on the packaging for 2012.


They've cancelled that scheme due to the length of the pipes. The 2012 rules will require a traditional periscope out of the top of the sidepod. Not sure what that'll do to McLaren L pods


http://scarbsf1.wordpress.com/2011/06/1 ... -exhausts/


Thanks for the clarification, my wrong.

That pretty much means that to me they could blow the beam wing in my opinion. Not sure what could be done, but it pretty much means that i can see Red Bull just bolt on the periscope exhausts from the RB5 onto the rear end and be pretty much there.

Periscope exhausts in 2009 were a strong point of many teams, however Red Bull have the most to loose, but Newey will have the loss nulified with the exploitation of another area.

As for the nose height rule, if it is for 2012, im haviong a look at the RB5 again, and guess what, the RB5 i belive is legal in my opinion for 2012. I think the Red Bull RB5 could be the basis on whitch the RB8 is made, but with all the refinements of the RB6 and RB7.
ESPImperium
 
Joined: 5 Apr 2008
Location: Glasgow, Scotland

Post Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:40 pm

Would the new nose regs not actually make the V-noses of RB5/RB6 a good feature? It would work better than RB7 IMO, no? How are the "low nose" regs worded?
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raymondu999
 
Joined: 4 Feb 2010

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