Relative qualities of the 2010 cars

[Just_a_fan]

A thread to discuss the relative qualities of the various 2010 F1 cars. E.g. why the MP4-25 has a supposed 0.6 second lap time deficit compared to the RB6 would be perfect here.

Discussions/pictures about the use of a left-handed thread on the suspension thrung-whistle of the RB6 should be taken to the RB6 thread. Likewise discussions on the finer details of other individual cars should be taken to their respective threads here:
viewforum.php?f=12

Discussions about the performance of a given car in a given race should be taken to the relevant race thread which can be found here:
viewforum.php?f=13

Let's argue and discuss but let's keep it civil and informative. Ad hom/invective should be kept to PMs between the respective protagonists.

[myurr]

Just shy over 6 tenths of a second. And besides, as you so frequently like to state yourself (don't make me post the URLs) THE RACE PACE MEANS NOTHING BECAUSE OF X, Y, and indeed Z.

So what's making you change your tune then?

Because you're doing your usual trick of cherry picking stats that back up your preconceived ideas whilst ignoring the full picture gained through actually watching the race.

By your own measure then Vettel must be in real trouble being even slower.

You can post any URLs you want if that will give you a nice warm massage, but what you're looking for from race performances is whether you can reasonably expect similar performances and speed in future races. Given that McLaren is currently getting all of their speed advantage from one area then current race pace given the tracks we've been at is going to count for very little once we get to European tracks like Barcelona, and they make up the bulk of the season. That's what I have said.

McLaren's race pace is right up there, and we've been denied the chance to see if they've made any qualifying improvements through a wrong call on the weather. You predicted that McLaren would absolutely tank at Sepang where they would be caught out due to lack of downforce through the corners, and you were utterly wrong. They had good pace all weekend, and at any stage of the race where Lewis was in clear air he was right up there on race pace.

Your thoughts also seem to be predicated on two, in my view, incorrect presumptions - that when other teams introduce the f-duct it will work as well as McLaren's version which has been refined over an extended period, and that McLaren won't be improving their car in other ways.

And just to throw another spanner in your works, the very fact that Buemi posted 4th fastest of the day, shows you that lap times in races where traffic is concerned, means absolutely not a thing.

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2010/04/04/m ... test-laps/

They are still slower - even with three or four tenths coming from straight line speed alone. They're nowhere on the top fastest laps produced at any time during the race. Rather than McLaren fans getting upset and looking for crumbs of comfort, maybe this thread can start discussing something useful such as where McLaren intend to get these much vaunted three tenths of a second from, especially now that the FIA have said no, they can't start doing quick and dirty ride height changes between qualifying and races?

You keep clinging to that fastest lap chart despite the fact that Lewis either held the fastest lap time or was within a couple of hundredths throughout the race and when his time was beaten by those 6 tenths he was stuck in traffic. You also ignore the fact that Webber only did that fast lap time for a single lap and was having to pace himself like all the others the rest of the time. This is, unfortunately, an endurance race now where you have to conserve the tyres over a long stint.

Do you even watch the races or are you just a government spin doctor wedded to clinging to dodgy stats?

[hollus]

Nice idea, Just a Fan.
Unfortunately reality will beat good intentions, specially in the internet.
I'll start dreaming by contributing a question on topic:

What are the differences between the Red Bull and the Toro Rosso that explain the massive, massive time difference between those two cars? It is something like 2 seconds a lap.

[gridwalker]

Nice idea, Just a Fan.
Unfortunately reality will beat good intentions, specially in the internet.
I'll start dreaming by contributing a question on topic:

What are the differences between the Red Bull and the Toro Rosso that explain the massive, massive time difference between those two cars? It is something like 2 seconds a lap.

Primarily, I'd say the biological component interfaced with the steering wheel and pedals.

Secondly, Ferrari have never hidden the fact that they've palmed second-rate "long life" engines off onto Torro Rosso, which explains A LOT.

Why do you think that Vettel's shock win in '08 was the first time that a ferrari customer engine has ever won a race?

[Phillyred]

What I found amazing about the last race was how well Sutil's car was able to stay ahead of LH's esp. on the straights.. McLaren's F-duct while being an ingenious design aiding in the overall aero-package is really only making up for some other areas lacking on the MP4 that other cars have such as the RB6s.. McLaren proved last year that when motivated their pace of development is second to none..

[BreezyRacer]

What I found amazing about the last race was how well Sutil's car was able to stay ahead of LH's esp. on the straights.. McLaren's F-duct while being an ingenious design aiding in the overall aero-package is really only making up for some other areas lacking on the MP4 that other cars have such as the RB6s.. McLaren proved last year that when motivated their pace of development is second to none..

Yes, that was interesting to see. Moreover, did you see how Sutil's Force India car just ate up Hamilton's McLaren through the high speed twisties? That's why Hamilton couldn't reel him in, let alone pass. It's good to see a young team doing so well with the fundamentals while McLaren is trying to be cute and all with it's F duct thing .. which absolutely SHOULDN'T be legal. That was a truly bad call. We're likely to see all matter aero adjustables now.

[thestig84]

What I found amazing about the last race was how well Sutil's car was able to stay ahead of LH's esp. on the straights.. McLaren's F-duct while being an ingenious design aiding in the overall aero-package is really only making up for some other areas lacking on the MP4 that other cars have such as the RB6s.. McLaren proved last year that when motivated their pace of development is second to none..

Yes, that was interesting to see. Moreover, did you see how Sutil's Force India car just ate up Hamilton's McLaren through the high speed twisties? That's why Hamilton couldn't reel him in, let alone pass. It's good to see a young team doing so well with the fundamentals while McLaren is trying to be cute and all with it's F duct thing .. which absolutely SHOULDN'T be legal. That was a truly bad call. We're likely to see all matter aero adjustables now.

It did not eat up Hamilton on the twisties!!! Have you not heard on the infamous dirty air problem! A few onboards just after LH caught up with Sutil showed LH having to get out of it in the high speed corners leaving him a bit far off to get close enough to the FI on the straight. It is good to see FI doing well though.

I still dont understand peoples complaints with the F-duct. I think it is fantastically simple, cheap and ingenious. Isnt that what F1 is all about, one place I thought people would appreciate it would be F1 Technical!!

[Phillyred]

I guess my point is McLaren needs to work on some other fundamental areas of the car to gain some more "points" of aero, because those Red Bulls have a solid platform and if they add a similar f-duct device, watch out.. It would be interesting to even compare the pace of last year's RB to this year's McLaren.. I'm guessing the McLaren should be faster, but....

[Poleman]

To the previous posts:

ForceIndia was running respectively less wing for Sepang gambling for a dry race setup therefore Sutil was able to match MP4-25 speed.There are a lot of factors you should aknowledge before posting such as, dirty air/clean corner exits from the car in front/tyre conditions e.t.c...FI did quite well and Sutil drove fantastic but a straight comparison between FI and MCL based quite on some laps of a specific GP on a specific time...Hey,cmon'....

[thestig84]

I guess my point is McLaren needs to work on some other fundamental areas of the car to gain some more "points" of aero, because those Red Bulls have a solid platform and if they add a similar f-duct device, watch out.. It would be interesting to even compare the pace of last year's RB to this year's McLaren.. I'm guessing the McLaren should be faster, but....

I will be impressed if other teams manage to optimize their f duct as well as Mclaren have. Others will not have the chassis optimized for the device as Mclaren have. James Allen said it has been developed over 2 years at Mclaren so not only will teams be concentrating on other updates for their cars but will also have to make the their own f duct work with no testing and all being not 100% sure of how the Mclaren system works so well.

On the point that last years redbull is just as quick as the 25!? Malaysia 09 RB best qualy lap was 1.34.3 This year best dry running time for mp4-25 was 1.33.5 in sat practice im sure that would have been a bit quicker when going all out if qualy wasnt wet.

[Giblet]

[quote="hollus"]Nice idea, Just a Fan.
Unfortunately reality will beat good intentions, specially in the internet.
I'll start dreaming by contributing a question on topic:

What are the differences between the Red Bull and the Toro Rosso that explain the massive, massive time difference between those two cars? It is something like 2 seconds a lap.[/quote

Newey and $.

[ringo]

I think it's mostly the suspension and the engineers that set it up.
Another thing is the slight aero differences around the diffuser area.

Funny how the STR is more reliable though.

[newbie]

ringo, the difference is primarily aero. the two cars are miles apart in terms of aero development and STR have a much smaller department in that area. they are still using 2009 spec parts for many aero components.

[StrFerrari4Ever]

I guess my point is McLaren needs to work on some other fundamental areas of the car to gain some more "points" of aero, because those Red Bulls have a solid platform and if they add a similar f-duct device, watch out.. It would be interesting to even compare the pace of last year's RB to this year's McLaren.. I'm guessing the McLaren should be faster, but....

On the point that last years redbull is just as quick as the 25!? Malaysia 09 RB best qualy lap was 1.34.3 This year best dry running time for mp4-25 was 1.33.5 in sat practice im sure that would have been a bit quicker when going all out if qualy wasnt wet.

You haven't taken into account that Red Bull back then didn't have a double diffuser whereas McLaren at the moment have a much more advanced diffuser implemented into their design.

[Pup]

I've noticed that the McLaren is relatively silver when compared to the Ferrari.

Sorry, but this is stupid. I know engineers and engineer wannabe's tend to be AR about things, but jeez, this thread.

It's OK if someone mentions the Red Bull in the McLaren thread. Really, it is.