CFD: Simulating Mercedes W08 super-ted cape nose

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Vanja #66
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CFD: Simulating Mercedes W08 super-ted cape nose

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...

Anyway, back to W08... As I said, I'm working on figuring out super-ted-cape thing, so this is my preliminary model for CFD. Very crude concerning front wing, but my effort went around the nose area. As for FW, suspension and tyres, probably even a basic shape for the rest of the car, it will come later. For this first iteration, I'll use a crude but efficient CFD tool, and for final one I'll use the best I can at the moment (if I'll be allowed to)... What do you guys think about the accuracy of the nose area and the cape thing? Any suggestion is more than welcome. :)

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Last edited by Vanja #66 on 02 Jun 2017, 08:00, edited 1 time in total.
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

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ema00
ema00
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Joined: 02 Mar 2012, 22:13

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W08 EQ Power +

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the front "diffusor" is very similar to the real one, congratulations...

I see de s-duct on the top but can't see the holes on the bottom, have you put them in the model? If so I think ther's another hole just at the beginning of the nose... you can see it here

Image

finally, which program have you used to build this model?

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Vanja #66
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W08 EQ Power +

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ema00 wrote:
01 Jun 2017, 22:34
the front "diffusor" is very similar to the real one, congratulations...

I see de s-duct on the top but can't see the holes on the bottom, have you put them in the model? If so I think ther's another hole just at the beginning of the nose... you can see it here

http://www.newsf1.it/wp-content/uploads ... 0014-1.jpg

finally, which program have you used to build this model?
Thanks! Ducting on the bottom is visible on the last screenshot I posted, based on this picture here:

Image

CAD model is made in Catia V5. The hole on the front of the nose is verly likely for driver cooling and therefore uninteresting at this point. :)
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

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everythingisawesome
everythingisawesome
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W08 EQ Power +

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Vanja #66 wrote:
01 Jun 2017, 21:56
...

Anyway, back to W08... As I said, I'm working on figuring out super-ted-cape thing, so this is my preliminary model for CFD. Very crude concerning front wing, but my effort went around the nose area. As for FW, suspension and tyres, probably even a basic shape for the rest of the car, it will come later. For this first iteration, I'll use a crude but efficient CFD tool, and for final one I'll use the best I can at the moment (if I'll be allowed to)... What do you guys think about the accuracy of the nose area and the cape thing? Any suggestion is more than welcome. :)

https://image.ibb.co/d0gR5v/1.jpg

https://image.ibb.co/cGhYkv/2.jpg

https://image.ibb.co/dwqxCa/3.jpg

https://image.ibb.co/keccCa/4.jpg

https://image.ibb.co/nETTJF/5.jpg
Nice work! It's especially difficult with Catia!

roon
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W08 EQ Power +

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everythingisawesome wrote:
02 Jun 2017, 09:30
It's especially difficult with Catia!
Isn't it what the teams would be using?

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Vanja #66
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W08 EQ Power +

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As far as I know, both Mercedes, Red Bull and Ferrari use both Catia and Siemens NX for their various CAD models. Not sure about Creo, even though it's what Dallara uses... Surfacing is really, really good in Catia, and that's important for aero package design...

I should be able to post first CFD results in the next 2-3 hours...
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

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Vanja #66
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W08 EQ Power +

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Here they are...

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What you can see on these pictures is that there is a vortex on the edge of the cape, as expected. What I also expected is another vortex inside the cape, but there isn't one. There could be many reasons for this, bad CFD set-up is most likely. And yeah, for this first set-up I forgot to include rake angle and generally front wing closer to the ground - corrected version is being calculated as we speak.

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As for the vortex occurring here where the tub begins (after the nose expansion near the tub), it's a strange one, not sure what to think of it.

Image

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Pressure plot here, as you can see Y250 vortex is really strong. I'm working on geometry much closer to reality (at least I hope so), so there's a lot more to come for front wing. Separation on cape leading edge and wing flap's trailing edge is bad geometry on my side, partly due to non-existent rake angle.

Image

There's also some turbulence (swirling) inside the S-duct, though this is far from what S-duct once was. :) Naturally, this is also bad geometry...

From this isolated model for CFD I couldn't learn much. Cape, at least in this first simulation, isn't behaving like diffuser as there isn't a vortex forming under the "ramp". I'm not sure if this is even supposed to happen, as this entire geometry is quite smooth and ramp doesn't have any sudden and acute changes in geometry (like typical diffuser does, which is what triggers it's vortices) and this is visible on the pictures of the car. There is an increase in pressure on the top side of the ramp, as is expected in free stream...

Feel free to interpret these preliminary results as wildly as possible, fresh ideas are scarce these days. :)
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#Aerogimli
#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie

timbo
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Joined: 22 Oct 2007, 10:14

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W08 EQ Power +

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It would be interesting to compare results of the nosecone with and without that blade. Also, can you try how it works in yaw?

Webber2011
Webber2011
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W08 EQ Power +

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Vanja #66 wrote:
02 Jun 2017, 21:36
Here they are...

https://image.ibb.co/dS3eQv/W1.jpg

https://image.ibb.co/n5Zm5v/W2.jpg

https://image.ibb.co/cgL4sa/W3.jpg

https://image.ibb.co/jYn65v/W4.jpg

What you can see on these pictures is that there is a vortex on the edge of the cape, as expected. What I also expected is another vortex inside the cape, but there isn't one. There could be many reasons for this, bad CFD set-up is most likely. And yeah, for this first set-up I forgot to include rake angle and generally front wing closer to the ground - corrected version is being calculated as we speak.

https://image.ibb.co/maH65v/W5.jpg

As for the vortex occurring here where the tub begins (after the nose expansion near the tub), it's a strange one, not sure what to think of it.

https://image.ibb.co/imJDkv/P1.jpg

https://image.ibb.co/eRSTJF/P2.jpg

https://image.ibb.co/iZ9ayF/P3.jpg

Pressure plot here, as you can see Y250 vortex is really strong. I'm working on geometry much closer to reality (at least I hope so), so there's a lot more to come for front wing. Separation on cape leading edge and wing flap's trailing edge is bad geometry on my side, partly due to non-existent rake angle.

https://image.ibb.co/mZwcCa/P4.jpg

There's also some turbulence (swirling) inside the S-duct, though this is far from what S-duct once was. :) Naturally, this is also bad geometry...

From this isolated model for CFD I couldn't learn much. Cape, at least in this first simulation, isn't behaving like diffuser as there isn't a vortex forming under the "ramp". I'm not sure if this is even supposed to happen, as this entire geometry is quite smooth and ramp doesn't have any sudden and acute changes in geometry (like typical diffuser does, which is what triggers it's vortices) and this is visible on the pictures of the car. There is an increase in pressure on the top side of the ramp, as is expected in free stream...

Feel free to interpret these preliminary results as wildly as possible, fresh ideas are scarce these days. :)
I'm afraid I'm not qualified to interpret your results mate, but I do applaud your effort ! ! !
I have a basic understanding of Aero, and posts like yours are the exact reason I signed up to this Forum.

You're showing me in visual terms and simple language what's going on.

I'm sure someone else will add to the conversation shortly with a bunch of X x Y/(X + W) x 3.1415 x(z/w) stuff that I have no chance of following :lol: :lol: :lol:

But I'd just like to say thanks for your work, these type of posts are the reason I really enjoy visiting F1Technical.

Cheers,
Simon

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Vanja #66
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W08 EQ Power +

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timbo wrote:
03 Jun 2017, 00:25
It would be interesting to compare results of the nosecone with and without that blade. Also, can you try how it works in yaw?
In these isolated conditions, it definitely adds some downforce with very small drag penalty, so it's beneficial. It would be no problem to check how's the situation without it. As for yaw, It will take more time to get the results (twice as large domain namely), but no problem... However, I'm not sure if it will be accurate, it may be able to give us just a rough estimate of flow structures.

Here are results with some rake angle and FW closer to the ground. Not much difference overall, but Y250 and cape vortices seem to be stronger...

Image

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Image

Cheers Simon, I'm glad you enjoyed! :)
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#Aerogimli
#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie

henra
henra
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W08 EQ Power +

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Vanja #66 wrote:
02 Jun 2017, 21:36
Feel free to interpret these preliminary results as wildly as possible, fresh ideas are scarce these days. :)
Thanks a lot for this great effort!

Initially I thought I had an idea what the cape was meant to achieve (mainly accelerating and directing Y250 with the rest of the 'cape' stabilizing airflow in the middle section towards the Tray) but your CFD doesn't seem to show this being the case. So I'm back to square one after having seen your CFD.

But even challenging/destroying an (apparently wrong) assumption is of benefit. So: Thanks for that!
Now I'm waiting for other to come up with a more correct assumption of this interesting device.

jose_lb
jose_lb
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W08 EQ Power +

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I'd say bring the wheels in before going for yaw.

And align the LE of the cape with the streamlines over the nose.

Maybe your mesh is too coarse to capture those vortices. Try plotting the streamwise component of vorticity in different planes.

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Vanja #66
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Joined: 19 Mar 2012, 16:38

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W08 EQ Power +

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I'm working on more accurate model for FW, then I'll add tyres and suspension arms. After that, I'll be doing the sim again, probably 3 times - half-model with cape, without cape and then full model in yaw. I can't say what comes after that and if I'll be able to to a full car sim. Even if I do, I'm not sure how useful it'll be as it will be far from the real thing...
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#Aerogimli
#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie

CBeck113
CBeck113
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Joined: 17 Feb 2013, 19:43

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W08 EQ Power +

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Please simulate the car in a curve once you've finished all the straight line work - I still believe that this is to protect, and from your sims so far, even strengthen the y250 in corners, more so than on straights.
“Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!” Monty Python and the Holy Grail

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W08 EQ Power +

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Those sims are missing a few key elements... So when that is complete you can try other thing.
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