2016 Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team - Mercedes

[SR71]

So, performance parameters are constantly adjusted, and customer teams don't know if they're getting the most from them, which is unfortunate, because....

Shall we let the customers look after the engines themselves? Because if they gone go tinker with it, Merc Ferrari et al won't sell it.
It should also be mentioned that both Williams and Force India have offices in Brixworth HPE.
So it's not a case of the customer never knowing if they don't get the most from the engine, it's symbiotic.

I still say that given data from sectors, lap times, from different circuits, allied to verifiable pictures of the cars running different wing angles, as well as the teams ability to run the tyres longer and harder, that Mercedes chassis and aero, as well as engine, is superior to anything else currently.

Really going out on a limb there....

[Steven]

The discussion on how power, torque and energy relate has been moved to its own topic:
http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... =4&t=24273

If there is more to be moved, please report.
And please continue to post on-topic in this or the new topic please

[Phil]

There is a nice analysis on the Mercedes vs the RedBull on AMuS.

For those that can speak and understand German:
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 09477.html

They obtained GPS data from Silverstone and Hungaroring and compared the best Qualifying times with each other. Their verdict is that in the corners they're close, but the Mercedes still has an advantage which can be seen towards the end of a long (enough) straight like Wellington or on Hangar where the Mercedes starts to eak out a higher top-speed. Acceleration (up to a point) and traction are very similar.

The detail can be easily understood by clicking through the gallery.

For convenience:

[Juzh]

Wow, good stuff phil.
Pretty much confirming the obvious. Merc has a power advantage and maybe a very slight advantage in some types of corners or rather corner entries, which would go well with their pointy front end. Red bull on the other hand seem to carry good corner speed overall.

[Pierce89]

When you consider the fact that RBR runs trimmed out compared to Mercedes because of the engine, then this shows me that RBR has slightly better aero, while Merc has a much better engine, including its low speed drivability.

[rscsr]

When you consider the fact that RBR runs trimmed out compared to Mercedes because of the engine, then this shows me that RBR has slightly better aero, while Merc has a much better engine, including its low speed drivability.

I don't really know what you mean with trimmed out. RBR have been driving with a much bigger rear wing in Silverstone than Mercedes. And they have had pretty much the same minimum speed through the corners. So it seems to me, RBR has the same downforce and more drag than Mercedes. If Mercedes had so much more engine power, they would be accelerating faster than RBR, but they don't do that. At least not until 270km/h or so. Which is also an indicator for more drag on the RBR. (of course assuming same mass)

[FoxHound]

When you consider the fact that RBR runs trimmed out compared to Mercedes because of the engine, then this shows me that RBR has slightly better aero, while Merc has a much better engine, including its low speed drivability.

I don't really know what you mean with trimmed out. RBR have been driving with a much bigger rear wing in Silverstone than Mercedes. And they have had pretty much the same minimum speed through the corners. So it seems to me, RBR has the same downforce and more drag than Mercedes. If Mercedes had so much more engine power, they would be accelerating faster than RBR, but they don't do that. At least not until 270km/h or so. Which is also an indicator for more drag on the RBR. (of course assuming same mass)

+1'd

Simply, it shows Red Bull are full of BS if they have the gumption to point to the engine as the reason they aren't beating Mercedes.

[basti313]

When you consider the fact that RBR runs trimmed out compared to Mercedes because of the engine, then this shows me that RBR has slightly better aero, while Merc has a much better engine, including its low speed drivability.

I don't really know what you mean with trimmed out. RBR have been driving with a much bigger rear wing in Silverstone than Mercedes. And they have had pretty much the same minimum speed through the corners. So it seems to me, RBR has the same downforce and more drag than Mercedes. If Mercedes had so much more engine power, they would be accelerating faster than RBR, but they don't do that. At least not until 270km/h or so. Which is also an indicator for more drag on the RBR. (of course assuming same mass)

No. Drag would be visible everywhere. They are accelerating up to 250kpm mostly totally similar. This tells me, that the drag is more or less the same on both cars and the ICE is more or less equal in power. The difference occurs randomly, but instantaneous between 250 and 280kph. This clearly tells me it is the MGU-K running out of power once the battery is not feeding it anymore and it is only supplied by the MGU-H.

[Jordan]

I don't believe you can actually pin point anything based on this data. Perhaps the redbull has more drag but better driveability, which allows it to keep up accelerating out of a corner but when it gets further down the straight the combination of more drag and the mercedes having more horsepower allows the mercedes to reach a higher top speed.

Now I'm not saying this is correct (because the probability of the renault engine having better driveability then the mercedes seems slim considering that was something redbull were complaining about at one point) but you see where I'm going with this. It could be a combination of a few different things.

"drag would be visible everywhere"
Let's say the redbull has more drag, which means they may have more rear downforce. I know this may not be the case because mercedes could have more efficient rear down force with less drag. But let's assume so that somebody can answer my next question. If the redbull had more rear downforce would this not allow them to possibly accelerate out of a corner sooner because of more rear end grip? And would this not contribute to better driveablility? or when we speak of driveability are we only talking about the powertrain and not any other external factors such as downforce?

So the mercedes and bull are matched coming out of the corner because the bull has more rear end grip and the mercedes has more power, but then at the end of the straight the power wins over the gains made by the extra grip .

I'm sure these theories are seriously flawed but I just wanted to point out how I think it would be tough to pinpoint where the mercedes has a performance advantage based on gps data.

P.S. I'm uneducated so go easy on me

[basti313]

But let's assume ....

What we can see on the GPS data is, that the Merc and the Bull are acceleration at perfectly the same rate out of Arena from 100kph to 200kph. They are doing the same out of Luffield, but this time similar acceleration from 120 to 260kph.
If it would have anything to do with aero we would see similar discrepancies at similar speeds. If it would be traction we would see an advantage at low speeds.

This is simply the battery power.

[dans79]

No. Drag would be visible everywhere. They are accelerating up to 250kpm mostly totally similar. This tells me, that the drag is more or less the same on both cars and the ICE is more or less equal in power. The difference occurs randomly, but instantaneous between 250 and 280kph. This clearly tells me it is the MGU-K running out of power once the battery is not feeding it anymore and it is only supplied by the MGU-H.

Drag and Downforce are proportional to velocity squared. so as high speeds lift and drag are important, at low speed they are almost inconsequential compared to mechanical grip.

Look at the slow speed datpoints (6,7,8,9,15,16,33,34,35), then look at the high speed datapoints (1,4,5,11,12,18,19,23,24,28,29).

RBR is slower or at best equal to Merc in the slow sections. On average they are 2.1 kph slower.

In the high speed sections they where actually faster twice, but overall still 4.7 kph slower.


So Merc is better all the way around the track. They have a chassis trick of some kind up their sleeves, because they are beating RBR at their own game (cornering speed). Merc Also has a power or drag advantage at high speed, most likely both.

[basti313]

Drag and Downforce are proportional to velocity squared.

This is what I try to tell and what is obviously not the cause for the change of the slope in the acceleration curve.

...... On average ........

I am not talking about averages and I am not interested in them. The differences are clearly visible and they are not the same on every straight, thus the average is nonsense.

So Merc is better all the way around the track.

No. They are better in certain corners and they have more electrical energy to use. On most parts of the track the Bulls are equal.

[dans79]

So Merc is better all the way around the track.

No. They are better in certain corners and they have more electrical energy to use. On most parts of the track the Bulls are equal.

You really need to go look at the numbers, because you are talking nonsense now. Of the 37 data points provided, Merc was faster in 23 of them (62.1%), RBR was faster in 6 (15.4%) and they where equal in 8 (21.6%)

Additonally:
Merc was Equal or better to RBR in every turn below 150kph. At those speeds and lower in turns, 2016 F1 cars are traction limited, not power limited. So, it doesn't mater how much Mercs power advantage is, because they can't get it to the ground.

Based on the data points provided, Merc has the better chassis, anyone who think otherwise must be smoking something.

[basti313]

So Merc is better all the way around the track.

No. They are better in certain corners and they have more electrical energy to use. On most parts of the track the Bulls are equal.

You really need to go look at the numbers, because you are talking nonsense now. Of the 37 data points provided, Merc was faster in 23 of them (62.1%), RBR was faster in 6 (15.4%) and they where equal in 8 (21.6%)

You are taking the points too serious. The 1-2kph differences tell nothing, many differences are related to the line the driver is taking (best example for this is Maggotts and Becketts). Hamilton is braking very late and has sometimes lower apex speeds. This can be clearly seen in the data. On the other hand on the ROS:RIC comparison you can see, that both cars are equal in fast and mid speed corners.

Additonally:
Merc was Equal or better to RBR in every turn below 150kph. At those speeds and lower in turns, 2016 F1 cars are traction limited, not power limited. So, it doesn't mater how much Mercs power advantage is, because they can't get it to the ground.

Based on the data points provided, Merc has the better chassis, anyone who think otherwise must be smoking something.

No one is denying that the Merc has an edge on mechanical grip. Like you say it now it makes sense, the chassis is better because it can generate more grip from the tires. But "So Merc is better all the way around the track." is just plain wrong.

[dans79]

On the other hand on the ROS:RIC comparison you can see, that both cars are equal in fast and mid speed corners.

Yes, because that is where RBR's High down force set up is beneficial.

You can break the cars in to 3 general areas.

1. slow speed - The car is dependent on mechanical grip/tires and chassis compliance. RBR is behind here, not by much but they are still behind. The reason Lewis can break late is because the car has good mechanical grip.
2. mid speed - Down-force is king here, because, the cars still have more power than it can actually utilize. RBR is focusing solely on this point, as you would expect since this is the teams strength and has been for years.
3. high speed. You are now into the realm of low drag and max power being important. RBR is behind here as well, as can be seen by them being down 8-9 kph on the long straits. The extra down-force from #2 hurts them here, but this has been the team philosophy since the v8 era.