Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

[FoxHound]

Red Bull story incoming!!

We're possibly going to be forced out of Formula One - Mercedes and Ferrari have refused to supply us out of fear," Adrian Newey said.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/34513738

Fear?

Oh dear its spreading.... Red Bull managements "entitlement complex" has now spread to Newey as well.

They dont want to supply you with engines Adrian because you treated your last engine supplier like sh*t.

It's as if goading is now a technique to try and get a supply of engines.

Red Bull are accelerating towards the exit on their own steam and volition.

[Phil]

Funny, I remember having this conversation back on page 33-34 about how Mercedes would be happy to supply RedBull if Renault withdraw. That wasn't too long ago, in July. Now that this clearly isn't the case and Ferrari have declined as well, it's... because they treat your supplier like sh*t? Ehm... okay. Since then, we've had various people, namely Toto state the conflict of interest in supplying one of their strongest competitors with a competitive engine.

Also, didn't Mercedes just turn down RedBull to supply it with engines? If their chassis is so good and ahead of the field, why not supply RedBull? I think I know the answer to that question..

Mercedes have said, if Renault withdraw they'll be open to supply.
This should answer many questions.

Lets not kid ourselves here. I don't think Mercedes is being worried of receiving some flack given their PU is by far the strongest package on the grid. There's no way any customer team would dream of criticising them while the factory team racks up win after win after win with that same PU. Well, 2016 might be different, you never know.

Not only that, if they were to supply RedBull with competitive engines, they wouldn't just put the success of their own team at risk, they'd (could) probably upset Ferrari who perhaps wouldn't be 2nd strongest team anymore, assuming there is still some performance differential in 2016 between the Mercedes and the Ferrari PU. That would most definitely result in more pressure in regards to engine regulations. It probably makes more sense [from Mercedes POV] to have two competitive happy engine/factory-teams pushing to keep regulations, rather than being the sole dominator (engine wise) and have multiple other engine manufacturers lobby against what you are doing to the sport. Much of Mercedes long term success of keeping these regulation in check relies on a semi competitive environment and having strong allies. 2014 wasn't good, but 2015 has been pretty perfect from that angle. Winning most races but being beaten on a few occasions.

[wickedz50]

Not only that, if they were to supply RedBull with competitive engines, they wouldn't just put the success of their own team at risk, they'd (could) probably upset Ferrari who perhaps wouldn't be 2nd strongest team anymore, assuming there is still some performance differential in 2016 between the Mercedes and the Ferrari PU. That would most definitely result in more pressure in regards to engine regulations. It probably makes more sense [from Mercedes POV] to have two competitive happy engine/factory-teams pushing to keep regulations, rather than being the sole dominator (engine wise) and have multiple other engine manufacturers lobby against what you are doing to the sport. Much of Mercedes long term success of keeping these regulation in check relies on a semi competitive environment and having strong allies. 2014 wasn't good, but 2015 has been pretty perfect from that angle. Winning most races but being beaten on a few occasions.[/quote]

Merc and Ferrari hand in hand? does this mean Ferrari win of 3 races this season was fixed behind closed doors? with the way the Merc strategy guys have come up with some bizarre things everything is possible these days. Nothing is clean and tidy anymore.

[Phil]

Nope, but the competitiveness of Ferrari in establishing its engine as seemingly on par with the Mercedes have certainly given them a stronger case in sticking with the current regulations. Imagine if 2015 would have been a perfect repeat of 2014, or worse, a competitor not winning a single race and the sport putting it down to difference in engine performance - you'd be having one crisis meeting after the next discussing on what that kind of dominance is doing to the sport and how they could/should open the engine regulations. Better to have the world think the gap is narrowing and that a more competitive season is around the corner. Having Ferrari as the 2nd strongest or nearly as an equal is better for them [Mercedes] than having the grid be dictated by Mercedes engined teams and Ferrari, Renault and Honda in harmony vocal about how they are unhappy. 2 vs 2 is better than 1 vs 3. Ferrari is a powerful ally as long as they think they can step up to Mercedes performance.

[Facts Only]

because they treat your supplier like sh*t? Ehm... okay. Since then, we've had various people, namely Toto state the conflict of interest in supplying one of their strongest competitors with a competitive engine.

What people say to the media isnt always the same as what they say in private amongst their own team. For example I havent heard anyone referring to Christian Horner as "little Jack Horner crying in the corner" in public yet....

[Writinglife]

What about the fact that supplying 1 or 2 new teams at short notice may not be actually possible. as well? Its not a case of "hey sure, we'll send you some engines now" it's a technical project to bring Red Bull (and Toro Rosso) on board with the engine, adding technicians etc.

The crux of the matter is Red Bull massively screwed the pooch on this. They belittled Renault in public and left it impossibly late to pick up another supplier. If they had made these overtures earlier in the year, then MAYBE they would stand a chance, but they painted themselves into a corner and are now kicking up a stink saying nobody wants them in the sport etc.

As much as I like Red Bull's presence in the pit lane, their fun attitude and the openness, they have a petulant streak which comes from (I suspect) Marko and leaves suppliers with a nasty taste.

I hope they remain, but I suspect until they decide, it'll be a lot more handbags and catty remarks.

[wickedz50]

Nope, but the competitiveness of Ferrari in establishing its engine as seemingly on par with the Mercedes have certainly given them a stronger case in sticking with the current regulations. Imagine if 2015 would have been a perfect repeat of 2014, or worse, a competitor not winning a single race and the sport putting it down to difference in engine performance - you'd be having one crisis meeting after the next discussing on what that kind of dominance is doing to the sport and how they could/should open the engine regulations. Better to have the world think the gap is narrowing and that a more competitive season is around the corner. Having Ferrari as the 2nd strongest or nearly as an equal is better for them [Mercedes] than having the grid be dictated by Mercedes engined teams and Ferrari, Renault and Honda in harmony vocal about how they are unhappy. 2 vs 2 is better than 1 vs 3. Ferrari is a powerful ally as long as they think they can step up to Mercedes performance.

Alonso's comment keeps ringing in my ears. "Ferrari will always be the second best". Renault position is quite surprising at the moment with not having spent any tokens in 2015 as yet. What are they really cooking? Sometimes it so happens that the whole world keeps blaming Renault engines and on a secret note they might be preparing for the most monstrous engine either in 2016 or 2017. May be they want to launch their new engine with their works team in Lotus.

[SoCalWJS]

First of all, I want to address a section of the people that have this tendency to put the hammer down on RBR by saying that they're only in F1 for their marketing gimmick. Well, if that's the case then thank god they're not serious about racing otherwise I can't begin to think how monotonous F1 would have been from 2010-13.

?????

Confused about this part.

I take it to mean that if RBR hadn't been in F1 during 2010-2013, F1 would have been boring.

How would that have made it boring/monotonous? If RBR weren't there dominating every race, wouldn't there have been 3-4 Teams battling it out week in and week out for the Driver's and Constructor's Championship?

[FoxHound]

Funny, I remember having this conversation back on page 33-34 about how Mercedes would be happy to supply RedBull if Renault withdraw. That wasn't too long ago, in July. Now that this clearly isn't the case and Ferrari have declined as well, it's... because they treat your supplier like sh*t? Ehm... okay. Since then, we've had various people, namely Toto state the conflict of interest in supplying one of their strongest competitors with a competitive engine.

Also, didn't Mercedes just turn down RedBull to supply it with engines? If their chassis is so good and ahead of the field, why not supply RedBull? I think I know the answer to that question..

Mercedes have said, if Renault withdraw they'll be open to supply.
This should answer many questions.

Lets not kid ourselves here. I don't think Mercedes is being worried of receiving some flack given their PU is by far the strongest package on the grid. There's no way any customer team would dream of criticising them while the factory team racks up win after win after win with that same PU. Well, 2016 might be different, you never know.

Not only that, if they were to supply RedBull with competitive engines, they wouldn't just put the success of their own team at risk, they'd (could) probably upset Ferrari who perhaps wouldn't be 2nd strongest team anymore, assuming there is still some performance differential in 2016 between the Mercedes and the Ferrari PU. That would most definitely result in more pressure in regards to engine regulations. It probably makes more sense [from Mercedes POV] to have two competitive happy engine/factory-teams pushing to keep regulations, rather than being the sole dominator (engine wise) and have multiple other engine manufacturers lobby against what you are doing to the sport. Much of Mercedes long term success of keeping these regulation in check relies on a semi competitive environment and having strong allies. 2014 wasn't good, but 2015 has been pretty perfect from that angle. Winning most races but being beaten on a few occasions.

What is the purpose of validating a position that does not exist?
A bit disingenuous wouldn't you say?

Renault have not withdrawn. They're back officially next year, the exact antithesis of "withdrawn". Which then leaves the onus on Red Bull terminating it's contract with Renault before it had a replacement engine.

Therefore, their position is one of their own making.

And I fail to see how future regulations of engines have anything to do with Red Bull's current position. Exactly nothing I surmise, and it assumes that Mercedes would veto any forthcoming engine rule changes. Something they've said they're open to discussion about.

[turbof1]

Foxhound you are, with purpose I sense, misinterpreting that message and argueing about symantecs. The point was that the partnership between red bull and renault would be terminated, as a condition to mercedes jumping in the breach.

This is why I locked the discussion before, people. The discussions currently hold no value other then playing the blame game. I'd left it closed if not that it contaminated other topics .

I read somewhere that Mateshitz will take a decision at the end of the month. I feel we'll have more to discuss about then. In the meanwhile it looks like Toro Rosso will continue with downtuned Ferrari engines into next year so cheers for that.

[Thunder]

In the meanwhile it looks like Toro Rosso will continue with downtuned Ferrari engines into next year so cheers for that.

Tost has been put in his Place: https://twitter.com/tgruener/status/653919880794755072

[Phil]

Well, I'm not going to make any secret, yes, that post I quoted from 34 is actually from you Fox, so maybe the onus is on you to clarify that. Given that it was clear back in July that Renault was contemplating complete withdrawal or buying back into a team (despite having a contract with RedBull for 2016), I must assume it was clear that RedBull had every intention of getting out of any still valid contract in order to pursue another competitive engine [with Mercedes], which is what "withdraw" probably means in this context - as in withdraw from supplying them with engines.

I was just pointing out that back in July, the conscious from Mercedes stance according to your very post (no idea who you quoted, I was merely trusting the authenticity of your own research/source) was that they were happy to step in and supply and perhaps RedBull, guided by these false impressions continued to terminate their contract with Renault only to then later find that Mercedes nor Ferrari are in fact willing to supply them. In fact, right before RedBull seemingly got out of the contract, I could hear Toto saying that in order for Mercedes to contemplate any such deal with RedBull, the contract with Renault would need to be successfully terminated. Then again, maybe they were thinking detuned or older spec engines all along, you know - for obvious reasons...

For me it was clear all along that Mercedes would not [want to] supply them. Then again, I must have also been in the minority (together with Mercedes and now Ferrari) who felt that RedBull hasn't lost much on the aero/chassis front and in conjunction with a competitive engine would perform much better, most likely to the point that the own factory team might be pushed a bit too much. But hey, who am I to say? Toto pretty much confirmed that these are real valid concerns when asked about the trade-off of supplying RedBull vs not supplying them.

As they should be. Given every team is free to operate inside the rules and regulation, it's in their very right to decline to supply. Anything else is IMO just an excuse. Of course, we can't expect either Mercedes or Ferrari coming out and admitting that. We wouldn't want the press to pick up on the merit of Mercedes two WCC and WDC hinging on the fact that the former 4 times champions were not in a position to compete.

[FoxHound]

Turbo,

The issue of misconstrued points comes from obfuscation. We can see readily the main issues of contention here is Red Bull's conduct and their premature termination of Renault supply.

It's a dangerous precedent that will have a knock on effect to most teams in the pitlane terminating engine contracts and demanding the best or leaving.

We could even see a group of smaller teams pool together and hold F1 ransom in such a fashion.

In a nutshell then, minus any obfuscating and reams of tripe...Red Bull are no more entitled to a Ferrari or Merc engine than Mercedes or Ferrari are entitled to the blue prints of Red Bull's aero philosophy. Until we all agree on that, this thread should remain locked

[turbof1]

In a nutshell then, minus any obfuscating and reams of tripe...Red Bull are no more entitled to a Ferrari or Merc engine than Mercedes or Ferrari are entitled to the blue prints of Red Bull's aero philosophy. Until we all agree on that, this thread should remain locked

I'll ask everyone to make a post if he or she ever disagreed with that. I am of opinion nobody is even argueing that. To me that points clearly there is no certainty what we are discussing. Brb, I'm going to grow 4 heads and 8 arms to make the necessary facepalms.

[Phil]

It's a dangerous precedent that will have a knock on effect to most teams in the pitlane terminating engine contracts and demanding the best or leaving.

We could even see a group of smaller teams pool together and hold F1 ransom in such a fashion.

This is probably for the engine-thread, but IMO this is not a problem with either the engine manufacturers or the teams with weaker engines, but an underlying problem that the sport as a whole has created by allowing through regulations to come this far. In other words, the regulators have to do a better job. It's that simple.