Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

[OneAlex]

Still, it has a lot more chances then trying to persuade iron will Dennis.

Ron is too stubborn to change his ideas that might help his own team, let alone Red Bull...

[turbof1]

We might also get no official news at all, with Red Bull just showing up with the Renault unbranded PUs at the tests in Barcelona. I can imagine that any official statement about it can lead to further image damage to both Renault and Red Bull due continueing a hazardous cooperation despite in altered name and form.

[f1nalfanat1cs]

Russian carmaker Lada's branding will appear on Formula One cars next 2016 season
(I apologize in advance for my bad English)
As yet unconfirmed reports on a Formula 1 car again, you may receive the logo domestic automaker LADA (AVTOVAZ). This fact has already occurred in the 2010 season, then the symbolism of LADA sported on the car stables Renault F1, advocated by Russia's first F1 driver Vitaly Petrov.
In the 2015 season, Renault has been a supplier of engines for the four-time champions of the royal race of Formula 1 (seasons 2010-2013) the team RED BULL, engines sold under the name Infinity. Although throughout the season, the team is often negatively spoke of the engine of Renault and even tried to get to the next season of the engines of other manufacturers (Mercedes, Ferrari, Honda) has loosed the contract with Renault, yet she has no choice how to re-engage.
In turn, Renault announced that it is no longer willing to jeopardize its reputation under the name Infinity engines just will not be delivered.
Recall Infinity is a luxury division of Japanese automaker Nissan, which Renault is located in the alliance. Renault at the very same moment owns a controlling stake in "AvtoVAZ" equal to 67%.
Given the very ambitious plans of the alliance Renault - Nissan to produce new models LADA, raising brand image and sales promotion with access to global markets, the idea of advertising their "daughter" by the Formula One seems to be quite promising.
In addition, Russian companies and the Russian pilot as a team, as well as the Russian stage in Sochi will finally attract the attention of Russian big business in Formula 1, which has a multi-million army of fans.
So it will be or not, we learn during the final stage of the Formula 1 season in 2015, which will be held in Abu Dhabi, where the team Red Bull will open all the cards.

[djos]

We might also get no official news at all, with Red Bull just showing up with the Renault unbranded PUs at the tests in Barcelona. I can imagine that any official statement about it can lead to further image damage to both Renault and Red Bull due continueing a hazardous cooperation despite in altered name and form.

Considering reports like this

https://twitter.com/tgruener/status/666280001369710592

Seem to be accurate, given Ricciardo was slower in a straight line than even Kyvatt at Brazil, I wouldn't be surprised if Renault pull out of F1 altogether seeing as they seem utterly incapable of producing a competitive ice!

[dans79]

Considering reports like this

https://twitter.com/tgruener/status/666280001369710592

Seem to be accurate, given Ricciardo was slower in a straight line than even Kyvatt at Brazil, I wouldn't be surprised if Renault pull out of F1 altogether seeing as they seem utterly incapable of producing a competitive ice!

That's to be expected i think, since they didn't run the entire update.

http://www.thecheckeredflag.co.uk/2015/ ... th-sergio/

It was revealed post-race that Renault only used a partial upgrade on its engine that gave Ricciardo his penalty, with the upgrade used in Brazil only using seven of the eleven tokens the engine manufacturer used.

The upgrade in Brazil was focused on internal combustion engine (ICE), while the four additional tokens were focused on the turbocharger, but due to part availability and the compatibility with the exhaust system, Renault were unable to introduce this element.

Does Renault provide the exaust, or does RBR build their own?

[bdeitemeyer]

Considering reports like this

https://twitter.com/tgruener/status/666280001369710592

Seem to be accurate, given Ricciardo was slower in a straight line than even Kyvatt at Brazil, I wouldn't be surprised if Renault pull out of F1 altogether seeing as they seem utterly incapable of producing a competitive ice!

That's to be expected i think, since they didn't run the entire update.

http://www.thecheckeredflag.co.uk/2015/ ... th-sergio/

It was revealed post-race that Renault only used a partial upgrade on its engine that gave Ricciardo his penalty, with the upgrade used in Brazil only using seven of the eleven tokens the engine manufacturer used.

The upgrade in Brazil was focused on internal combustion engine (ICE), while the four additional tokens were focused on the turbocharger, but due to part availability and the compatibility with the exhaust system, Renault were unable to introduce this element.

Does Renault provide the exaust, or does RBR build their own?

That's to be expected? Many months of R&D to come up with improvements, and the replacement ICE is LESS powerful than the previous iteration? Whether the "new and improved" turbocharger was included with the update or not, why would that excuse the new ICE being a downgrade?

[turbof1]

We don't know how the ICE is supposed to perform with the new TC. The TC has a direct influence on the iCE. If the air is sub-optimal compressed, due the old TC, for both the combustion chamber and the fuel, it does sound logical you are going to loose performance.

Not that I'm defending poor performance from Renault, but if the stories are true that Red Bull continues with Renault, and with Red Bull being fairly safe on that 4th WCC position before the race, it would make sense to use the remaining races to test out parts for next year. In my eyes, the 12 tokens are kind of wasted anyway. If you consider that they have 32 tokens next year and have waited too long anyway introducing updates, what are those 12 tokens going to matter? Better to use them now to try some things out, even if it means going slower in the final races. Hopefully that gets converted to a good performance boost next year.

[ME4ME]

If the air is sub-optimal compressed, due the old TC

Please do explain what that is supposted to mean
The old TC should very much be capable to deliver the boost pressure required. It's probably just a few percent of efficiency they are try to get with the new TC.

I think those 12 tokens do matter. If they gain nothing by using them, and have to re-do the ICE and TC this winter, then that is going out of their allowence of next years tokens, as well as them being even further behind Ferrari and Mercedes in time.

It is not about just trying something out. When Renault brings updates, they should know within a small margin what the gain will be. It's not a lottery, it's engineering. They have simulation, dynos, AVL vehicle dynos etc.
Renault either have absolutely no clue what they are doing, or there is something wrong with the data their are retreiving.

[turbof1]

If the air is sub-optimal compressed, due the old TC

Please do explain what that is supposted to mean
The old TC should very much be capable to deliver the boost pressure required. It's probably just a few percent of efficiency they are try to get with the new TC.

I think those 12 tokens do matter. If they gain nothing by using them, and have to re-do the ICE and TC this winter, then that is going out of their allowence of next years tokens, as well as them being even further behind Ferrari and Mercedes in time.

It is not about just trying something out. When Renault brings updates, they should know within a small margin what the gain will be. It's not a lottery, it's engineering. They have simulation, dynos, AVL vehicle dynos etc.
Renault either have absolutely no clue what they are doing, or there is something wrong with the data their are retreiving.

A few percentages can quickly be 30-40bhp.

Again, the tokens are introduced way too late to be of any matter on the current season. Are the current tokens laying a foundation for the next season? Possible. However it's not a disaster if they are going to spend tokens on the same parts they used those 12 tokens. Mercedes and Ferrari are continually doing the same because the most delta performance keeps coming from development in the same parts in the ICE. It's not optimal, it's not most efficient way, but given we are talking about Renault it would be atleast an improvement if they could cut a bit of the gap next year. It's not like they are going to catch up with Mercedes next year, let's be realistic about that.

[ME4ME]

A few percentages can quickly be 30-40bhp.

Again, the tokens are introduced way too late to be of any matter on the current season. Are the current tokens laying a foundation for the next season? Possible. However it's not a disaster if they are going to spend tokens on the same parts they used those 12 tokens. Mercedes and Ferrari are continually doing the same because the most delta performance keeps coming from development in the same parts in the ICE. It's not optimal, it's not most efficient way, but given we are talking about Renault it would be atleast an improvement if they could cut a bit of the gap next year. It's not like they are going to catch up with Mercedes next year, let's be realistic about that.

I ment a few percent on the TC, not compounded effect. But anyway, hopefully we'll see what is what at Abu Dhabi.

My point about the iterative process of improving ICE etc is that if Renault goes by the philosophy of introducing big upgrades at a large interval of time, than it's catastrophic if one of those iterations fail, like it seems to has done now. It's 12 tokens going to waste that should have delivered performance, so they can build upon that and deliver another step for the start of 2016. Instead, they have made no step at the moment. So not only do they not have that performance "on the board" .. they also need to spend time this winter to figure out where it went wrong.

Edit: @dans79, I did read the article. Just went with what Turbo said regarding the 12 tokens.

[dans79]

That's to be expected?

The components are designed to work together to produce maximum output & maximum efficiency, so running the wrong turbo could easily knock you down a few pegs.

It's 12 tokens going to waste that should have delivered performance, so they can build upon that and deliver another step for the start of 2016.

did you read the article, they didn't run all 12 tokens, they ran a sub-optimal subset.

[turbof1]

A few percentages can quickly be 30-40bhp.

Again, the tokens are introduced way too late to be of any matter on the current season. Are the current tokens laying a foundation for the next season? Possible. However it's not a disaster if they are going to spend tokens on the same parts they used those 12 tokens. Mercedes and Ferrari are continually doing the same because the most delta performance keeps coming from development in the same parts in the ICE. It's not optimal, it's not most efficient way, but given we are talking about Renault it would be atleast an improvement if they could cut a bit of the gap next year. It's not like they are going to catch up with Mercedes next year, let's be realistic about that.

I ment a few percent on the TC, not compounded effect. But anyway, hopefully we'll see what is what at Abu Dhabi.

My point about the iterative process of improving ICE etc is that if Renault goes by the philosophy of introducing big upgrades at a large interval of time, than it's catastrophic if one of those iterations fail, like it seems to has done now. It's 12 tokens going to waste that should have delivered performance, so they can build upon that and deliver another step for the start of 2016. Instead, they have made no step at the moment. So not only do they not have that performance "on the board" .. they also need to spend time this winter to figure out where it went wrong.

Edit: @dans79, I did read the article. Just went with what Turbo said regarding the 12 tokens.

Well, I hope they don't repeat the same mistake they made last year. If the 12 tokens are used in a way it does not add performance, but adds knowledge to using the future tokens much more efficiently, then that's something atleast. The ideal solution would be as you described: have a coherent plan for 44 tokens, spend 12 now and 32 next season. The reality is unfortunaly that Renault was not in the position to plan that. They spend much of the season working out reliability. I'd imagine that development on those 12 tokens has been minimal.

[djos]

We don't know how the ICE is supposed to perform with the new TC. The TC has a direct influence on the iCE. If the air is sub-optimal compressed, due the old TC, for both the combustion chamber and the fuel, it does sound logical you are going to loose performance.

Not that I'm defending poor performance from Renault, but if the stories are true that Red Bull continues with Renault, and with Red Bull being fairly safe on that 4th WCC position before the race, it would make sense to use the remaining races to test out parts for next year. In my eyes, the 12 tokens are kind of wasted anyway. If you consider that they have 32 tokens next year and have waited too long anyway introducing updates, what are those 12 tokens going to matter? Better to use them now to try some things out, even if it means going slower in the final races. Hopefully that gets converted to a good performance boost next year.

I'm not disagreeing with you in principle, however it's worth pointing out that Mercedes spent their 7 tokens solely on the ice at Monza and made a measurable gain.

http://formulaspy.com/features/tech-ins ... ined-18270

[FoxHound]

I'm not disagreeing with you in principle, however it's worth pointing out that Mercedes spent their 7 tokens solely on the ice at Monza and made a measurable gain.

http://formulaspy.com/features/tech-ins ... ined-18270

And if Mercedes were forced to use say... 5 of those 7, do you think the gains would be 5/7th's the gain they had?

[djos]

I'm not disagreeing with you in principle, however it's worth pointing out that Mercedes spent their 7 tokens solely on the ice at Monza and made a measurable gain.

http://formulaspy.com/features/tech-ins ... ined-18270

And if Mercedes were forced to use say... 5 of those 7, do you think the gains would be 5/7th's the gain they had?

You are missing the point, Renault spent 9 tokens on their PU vs Mercedes 7 for theirs. As far as we can tell the 9 tokens have delivered a regression in performance of the Renault PU.