2016 Sauber F1 Team - Ferrari

[Sniffit]

How is it possible that a team shows up at a GP without fresh replacement engines? Would it be down to production limitations of Ferrari or is it due to lack of funds at the team? Anyway it seems really odd to me that a team or their supplier would take such a chance.

[Jolle]

however, Kaltenborn has been nothing but a curse and a disease for the once glorious team. What a shame. I still can't see how Peter Sauber has her still running.
She must have done some pretty good contract finelining or she has some other skills. There are plenty far more capable and potential people available or were vailable to run the team decently. what a waste.

Who? David Copperfield? Any other magician? You? I honestly don't get the hate Kaltenborn gets - she is in an incredibly difficult situation limited by the means available. Who could do better with the current situation? Unless that person also has a tree growing money or some kind of magic sponsorship backing, I really fail to see who the armchair expert suggests would be far more capable for the job at hand.

I mostly agree with you. She is in a difficult place.

However, she deserves the hate. Defrauding Guido Van Der Garde, letting the team get uncompetitive from 2012-2013 and her constant uncompromising whining on media.

I think it's hard to tell from the reletive outside if Kaltenborn is the/a problem or if she is fighting with everything in her power and a bit more, to keep the team alive.

One of Saubers problems are clearly the lack of funding. Just like Williams they brought a few important brands into F1 and lost them to the big boys... Their last big blow when the lost the free engines because Ferrari got their own tunnel working again (and choose Haas as a junior team instead of Sauber)

So, who wants to buy a very nice wind tunnel and carbon production plant? Audi? BMW again?

[Phil]

I think it also hurt them quite a bit when Petronas teamed up with Mercedes. I understand Petronas was a big sponsor Sauber for many years until 2009. While Sauber remained somewhat "competitive" from 2010 continuing on to 2013, they completely went off the grid in 2014 when costs increased quite a bit and the PU was not very competitive. At least prior to 2014, they still had the means to compete thanks to the windtunnel and their expertise in the aero field, being able to do a lot with less (or on a budget).

To understand why Sauber is struggling as much as they are don't need to look far. They can just compare both Williams and Saubers progress from beginning of 2010 into the transition of new power-units to see what kind of an impact that had.

Then of course, the way teams would pay their suppliers changed in 2013 when some of the backmarker teams went bust. That put a lot of (financial) pressure on how bills would need to be paid to even show up at GPs.

[Jolle]

I think it also hurt them quite a bit when Petronas teamed up with Mercedes. I understand Petronas was a big sponsor Sauber for many years until 2009. While Sauber remained somewhat "competitive" from 2010 continuing on to 2013, they completely went off the grid in 2014 when costs increased quite a bit and the PU was not very competitive. At least prior to 2014, they still had the means to compete thanks to the windtunnel and their expertise in the aero field, being able to do a lot with less (or on a budget).

To understand why Sauber is struggling as much as they are don't need to look far. They can just compare both Williams and Saubers progress from beginning of 2010 into the transition of new power-units to see what kind of an impact that had.

Then of course, the way teams would pay their suppliers changed in 2013 when some of the backmarker teams went bust. That put a lot of (financial) pressure on how bills would need to be paid to even show up at GPs.

Not just Petronas, but they started off by being "pushed" into F1 by Mercedes ('93/94 I think), then RedBull, who even bought a great amount of stock, then Petronas, BMW and after that Ferrari (for use of their wind tunnel)

And for the drivers: Kimi of course, Massa who got his first shot with them, Perez, Frenzen, etc etc

F1 owes Sauber big time. The top 3 teams at the moment are where they are because of then in one way or another.

With the three of them, they should start a Sauber Fund.

[efuloni]

Very good race by Nasr yesterday. Unlucky for him the race didnt have accidents or many reliabity issues, otherwise he could be at the points.

[Facts Only]

I think it also hurt them quite a bit when Petronas teamed up with Mercedes. I understand Petronas was a big sponsor Sauber for many years until 2009. While Sauber remained somewhat "competitive" from 2010 continuing on to 2013, they completely went off the grid in 2014 when costs increased quite a bit and the PU was not very competitive. At least prior to 2014, they still had the means to compete thanks to the windtunnel and their expertise in the aero field, being able to do a lot with less (or on a budget).

To understand why Sauber is struggling as much as they are don't need to look far. They can just compare both Williams and Saubers progress from beginning of 2010 into the transition of new power-units to see what kind of an impact that had.

Then of course, the way teams would pay their suppliers changed in 2013 when some of the backmarker teams went bust. That put a lot of (financial) pressure on how bills would need to be paid to even show up at GPs.

Not just Petronas, but they started off by being "pushed" into F1 by Mercedes ('93/94 I think), then RedBull, who even bought a great amount of stock, then Petronas, BMW and after that Ferrari (for use of their wind tunnel)

And for the drivers: Kimi of course, Massa who got his first shot with them, Perez, Frenzen, etc etc

F1 owes Sauber big time. The top 3 teams at the moment are where they are because of then in one way or another.

With the three of them, they should start a Sauber Fund.

I think this shows just how poor Sauber have been at taking the opportunities that they have had. Lots of big backers and great drivers have come and gone and they have never managed to capitalise on them properly. Apart from a few blips like 2012 a team that has pretty much always under-achieved.

[Phil]

That's a very unjustified FactsOnly.

Sauber has always been a team well established in the midfield. It's main rivals and competitors over the last decade have been ForceIndia, Williams and Torro-Rosso. The more successful racing teams, like McLaren, Ferrari, RedBull, and now Mercedes, have been much much better funded. They are also racing teams with a much more significant backing, backing by either their own brands and in-house capability to succeed on a level, especially in this new formula, where a privateer such as Sauber can not.

One could easily say that any team within the midfield is grossly handicapped to succeed on a level that the top 4 do. To actually survive in this sport is much more a feat many newer teams are yet to accomplish and prove. Also bear in mind that the costs have been increasing and that the regulations have been changing in order to guarantee a level of technological progress (that also bears a cost too). For many teams such as Ferrari, or Mercedes, even RedBull and to some extend McLaren - being in F1 is simply a marketing exercise, the goal being to sell their brand to succeed in markets outside the sport. Not so much Sauber and the others. To say Sauber has under-achieved, one would need to compare that to the other teams who are in a similar position to them. When I look at ForceIndia, Williams or Torro-Rosso, I don't think one could say that they've achieved much better. Force-India and Williams were very close to hitting rock-bottom too, at least before these new PUs came about. Any make no mistake; Any team out of the midfield will only ever achieve something through circumstance. Not any of them have the true pace to actually contest podiums or even points against the top 3. They can only hope to be there in the right time in the right circumstance.

Then there's also the problem that while the sport tries to grow in size, become more of a spectacle, the companies willing to invest into F1 are decreasing. Big sponsors that might have funded the smaller teams more evenly in the old days are slowly moving to the big teams and little to few companies are willing to support or even enter F1. One could say the big boys are milking the small ones.

This all in itself should be ringing a few bells. This sport is very very far from being healthy.

[sauberfan]

Sauber also plans to introduce minor aero updates in Britain and is targeting the following race in Hungary for the introduction of its new front wing and rear wing.

Source: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.ph ... om-britain

[Facts Only]

I disagree, I don't thinks its at all unjustified. Sauber have had some amazing opportunities like massive investment from BMW and big sponsors like PETRONAS and Red Bull and as you say they have only managed to establish themselves in the midfield (at best).

I don't see what the state of the sport has to do with what I said when it was a comment about them in comparison to other teams, all of the teams are in the same sport and many have exactly the same challenges (especially FIF1)

They have managed to slide from the 2012 peak of "Front of the midfield" to pretty much last battling manor. The PU did hurt them in 2014 but 2015/16 it has been well up there, hell look at what Torro Rosso are doing with the PU Sauber had last year.

I have rooted for Sauber for a long long time, an independent underdog but they are chronic under achievers. They don't seem to be able to make any headway in race results (like FIF1) or effectively use the amazing facilities they have to make a commercially viable business (like Williams).

The more successful racing teams, like McLaren, Ferrari, RedBull, and now Mercedes, have been much much better funded
Like when Sauber had the BMW funding and they managed 1 race win.

They are also racing teams with a much more significant backing, backing by either their own brands and in-house capability to succeed on a level, especially in this new formula, where a privateer such as Sauber can not.

Sauber have superior in house capabilities than FIF1 and are no more of a privateer than Williams, HAAS or Manor.

Also bear in mind that the costs have been increasing and that the regulations have been changing in order to guarantee a level of technological progress
And its the same for all of the other midfield teams.

Force-India and Williams were very close to hitting rock-bottom too, at least before these new PUs came about. Any make no mistake; Any team out of the midfield will only ever achieve something through circumstance. Not any of them have the true pace to actually contest podiums or even points against the top 3. They can only hope to be there in the right time in the right circumstance.

Williams had plenty of pace to contest podiums in 2014/15 and FIF1 certainly had the pace in Baku and have been quick all year. Even when Williams were at Rock bottom in the standings they were still commercially viable.

The only people to blame are the management at Sauber.

[Phil]

I disagree, I don't thinks its at all unjustified. Sauber have had some amazing opportunities like massive investment from BMW and big sponsors like PETRONAS and Red Bull and as you say they have only managed to establish themselves in the midfield (at best).

Amazing opportunities? Are we discussing their ability to score points and wins during the BMW era or what followed after?

You mean like the 17 podiums in 70 races (4 seasons) under BMW? The sole one win and pole position? Compare this to Toyota who had nearly double the races (8 seasons) but 0 wins (zero, yes), 13 podiums and 3 pole positions. From what we know, Toyota who is also a major car manufacturer that poured a lot of money into F1 with evidently fewer highs.

What about Honda? From 2006 to 2008 (3 seasons), they too poured immense money into their team. What gains? 1 win and 2 podiums.

Are these the same 'amazing opportunities' you might be referring to?

So maybe, just maybe, it's not that simple after all, even with amazing opportunities. Not when you are battling against well established teams who have invested into the sports for years and years. Even so, under the wing of BMW, Sauber didn't do that bad. They got 1 win, quite a few podiums and were at their best in 2007 (WCC 2nd) and 2008 (3rd). In 2009, still under BMW and possibly a result of lack of double diffuser they slipped back to 6th in the WCC.

Also, 2009 was a year when BMW had long decided that they were out. It was fortunate enough that they allowed Peter Sauber to reacquire his team, but the process was long and difficult. In the end, Peter Sauber got his team back, but we can only speculate at what expense. The only fruits he labored from the glorious BMW times were the investments carried out to their base in Hinwil/ZH and the wind tunnel. I also understand that that use would be further limited by the rules and regulation of F1.

Everything from 2010 on and the Sauber has found itself it deeper struggles. Everyone who thought that Peter Sauber bought back a "GP winning team" in 2010 are mistaken. The situation was anything but that (and well documented too). 2010 to 2013 marked mixed years in terms of competitiveness. They got some rather good results through 'circumstance' and also somewhat due to the Pirelli tires being that unpredictable and difficult to understand.

Perhaps this gives a better view of the progress of two similar teams from 2010 onward:

2010: 8th (44pts) / Williams 6th (69pts)
2011: 7th (44pts) / Williams 9th (5pts)
2012: 6th (126pts) / Williams 8th (76pts)
2013: 7th (57pts) / Williams 9th (5pts)
2014: 10th (0pts) / Williams 3rd (320pts)
2015: 8th (36pts) / Williams 3rd (257pts)

Getting that Mercedes engine was the best thing that could have happened for Williams going into 2014. At the same time, Sauber went through a very hard time after BMW got out in 2009. They lost valuable sponsorship (Petronas) and others to the point the car was practically empty the last few years (with the exception of their pay drivers now).

Also, don't for a second assume that the same sponsor will pay equal money at a team like Sauber or a team like Mercedes. Petronas sponsoring the current world championship winning team is worth a lot more (and being associated with them) then when they were sponsoring Sauber before.

Lastly, I can only say - for someone who has 'rooted for Sauber for a long long time' you seem to be pretty lost on many of the countless reasons that have made their success and progress rather difficult in this sport. Especially after BMW jumped off and in what state they actually left that team.

[Facts Only]

O.K yeah Sauber are brilliant. Its not like somebody from Switzerland would be biased in what they say about the swiss team.

Just because Toyota and Honda did worse than BMW doesn't make them good. Sauber under-achieved, Toyota were worse, Honda were diabolical.

The sad thing is that as it stands now, things appear to be getting worse and blaming other people wont improve things.

Agree to disagree

[Phil]

I wasn't blaming anyone. And despite being from Switzerland, heck, 20 minutes away from Hinwil, you'll find I'm not really emotionally vested in Sauber. Nothing I have posted on this very forum since I have been an active member would suggest that. Kudos for playing that card though. =D>

In case I was unclear, I was explicitly replying to your comment on how poorly they have capitalized on seemingly 'amazing opportunities'. Yet, we established that at least two teams, that are also major car manufacturers who have entered and invested heavily into winning in F1 have somehow managed to fair even worse...

So yes, in your view, they 'under achieved'. Under achieved compared to whom? The top 4 teams who have been major players in F1 for years with nearly unparalleled investments? Who are also major players outside F1 and have major financial backing and resources? E.g. McLaren, Ferrari, Mercedes and RedBull (+ TorroRosso).

Who is left? All the others have faired similarly or have left the sport either bankrupting themselves or fairing even worse! Who is left is Force-India and Williams - both who have seen fortunes turn significantly since these new V6s came about and ironically both of them are running Mercedes engines. Go figure... And no, I'm not blaming anyone, but perhaps the sport. I'm certainly not blaming the Sauber management for being in survival mode and doing everything within their ability to show up in races without being able to rely on outside markets or sponsorship (that they don't have) that would make this a walk in the park. I also don't blame them for not knowing prior to 2014 who would turn out with the best PU, but rather believing (or simply being contracted to) Ferrari.

One would have to be blind though to not see these as factors to why and how Sauber ended up where they are.

[FW17]

F1 is a tough sell. Finding people with a cash and racing passion are almost non existent today.

It may also be cheaper to start a new team today than buying a team as the running cost of an existing one is going to be sky high.

I think in the interim sauber should appoint independent consultants for some fresh ideas on the marketing and technical side.

While MK and PS have there network within the industry something fresh is required now more than ever.

[Phil]

It may also be cheaper to start a new team today than buying a team as the running cost of an existing one is going to be sky high.

That is a very good point. The team grew quite a bit during the BMW years and then, during 2009 when BMW had decided that it would leave, Peter Sauber did a lot in order to buy back the team and keep the jobs of all employees. At what cost, is unknown, but media here reported that he had to put a lot of money (from his personal savings) to keep the team afloat, despite not actually wanting to be involved anymore.

Sauber has always been Peter Saubers life work. As such, it has always remained a primary objective to keep the name 'Sauber' attached to the team and to secure the business future along with its employees. I understand this is the reason why a sale of the team has been more difficult. There are various deals and opportunities - Sirotkin comes to mind along with his investors, but from what I gather, this would never have secured a long-term-guarantee.

There are other reasons why Sauber has always had a bit of a tough career in F1. I understand Hinwil is probably not the most attractive location, not when 95% of the other racing teams are all situated in the UK with Ferrari pretty much being the exception. They have lost quality staff over the years to other teams too, that has hurt their ability to stay as competitive as they perhaps could have been if one is to only look at their infrastructure. Once you're in this negative trend of 'under performing', losing staff and sponsorship, it's very hard to stop and turn things around. As more and more investors jump off the sinking ship, it makes it even more difficult to achieve the results you so desperately need to get new ones on board.

[FW17]

There are other reasons why Sauber has always had a bit of a tough career in F1. I understand Hinwil is probably not the most attractive location, not when 95% of the other racing teams are all situated in the UK with Ferrari pretty much being the exception. They have lost quality staff over the years to other teams too, that has hurt their ability to stay as competitive as they perhaps could have been if one is to only look at their infrastructure. Once you're in this negative trend of 'under performing', losing staff and sponsorship, it's very hard to stop and turn things around. As more and more investors jump off the sinking ship, it makes it even more difficult to achieve the results you so desperately need to get new ones on board.

Sauber has had a long career in F1 and Sportscar racing. In this period could have had various programs to cultivate Swiss engineeres who could have grown to take the leadership positions by now and not be dependent on UK. Over the years have never heard of a swiss engineer at the top of the team. Any reason why?