Engine Hypotheticals

[strad]

Is this wht you're talking about?
http://www.stradsplace.com/VIDEOS/Matchette_Prototyping.mpg

[olefud]

1. What benefits, if any, would a mono-block engine have over regular ICE design?

You don´t have to deal with head bolts and a gasket. But you have to machine the valve seats from below. Brian Hart has this done on his turbo engine.

I believe Porsche welded the heads on some of their engines, aircooled I guess

I can’t open Strad’s example so this may be redundant. Porsche stuck a rotatible mirror up the cylinder and use a laser for the internal head-to-block weld. I don’t recall for sure but maybe the 962 which would be water cooled.

[Wideband mindeD]

Has anyone actually read what I asked? Or are you just thrilled to go off on a valve seat tangent.

This thread is about the future of 3D printed objects, including a self contained, single piece engine. NO ASSEMBLY, just installation.

What design compromises are done away with if you didn't require assembly in post production?

[superdread]

Has anyone actually read what I asked? Or are you just thrilled to go off on a valve seat tangent.

This thread is about the future of 3D printed objects, including a self contained, single piece engine. NO ASSEMBLY, just installation.

What design compromises are done away with if you didn't require assembly in post production?

Your original question had nothing in it about rapid prototyping.

To give you a short answer: No.
While it is certainly possible to rapid prototype some form of metal, the grade of metallurgic sophistication (e.g. heat treatments, grain size) that goes into a current engine is not achievable. Also with different alloys right next to each other (e.g. block- Al, liner - steel, piston Al), each having smooth surfaces between them, would give some extra hurdles.

[matt21]

Costs would come way down, and using an engine per session will not matter.

i do not see the costs to come down to such an extend that you can use one engine per session. I think in minimum it has to last for one weekend.

[Wideband mindeD]

I did start this thread asking what would change if an engine were to be made as a single piece, with all pieces "cast" in place.

The metallurgy is part of the development that will take place over the next 10 or so years.

My question is "What design compromises/philosophies change if you can print fully assembled engines?" Would it create a more efficient engine?

I went back and re-read several posts on this site that I found to be very well done, and I now realize that the best people to answer these questions have been run off by some of the other idiocy that I dug up.

Sorry people, I thought you were better than you turned out to be. My bad.

[hardingfv32]

Sorry people, I thought you were better than you turned out to be. My bad.

Your questions were too 'hypothetical' for the interests of most the current posters. You need a better understanding of the forum that you are posting on to get the results you want.

You are 'bad' for complaining. I doubt you will be missed on this forum.

Brian

[superdread]

I did start this thread asking what would change if an engine were to be made as a single piece, with all pieces "cast" in place.

Casting and rapid prototyping are very different things. Also some parts of the engine are forged (pistons...), for very good reasons.

The metallurgy is part of the development that will take place over the next 10 or so years.

How, for example, do you propose to print an alloy in a certain microstructure? controlled cooling from liquid? (especially when it's right next to another material) or maybe printing atom by atom? (possible using an ion gun, but would take a while)

My question is "What design compromises/philosophies change if you can print fully assembled engines?" Would it create a more efficient engine?

The pistons bearing on the crankpin could be made much lighter,requiring smaller crankshaft counterweights (therefore lowering vibration).

Saving the bolt connections between cylinder heads, block and crankcase. would save a bit of weight.

[Wideband mindeD]

I did start this thread asking what would change if an engine were to be made as a single piece, with all pieces "cast" in place.

Casting and rapid prototyping are very different things. Also some parts of the engine are forged (pistons...), for very good reasons.

The metallurgy is part of the development that will take place over the next 10 or so years.

How, for example, do you propose to print an alloy in a certain microstructure? controlled cooling from liquid? (especially when it's right next to another material) or maybe printing atom by atom? (possible using an ion gun, but would take a while)

My question is "What design compromises/philosophies change if you can print fully assembled engines?" Would it create a more efficient engine?

The pistons bearing on the crankpin could be made much lighter,requiring smaller crankshaft counterweights (therefore lowering vibration).

Saving the bolt connections between cylinder heads, block and crankcase. would save a bit of weight.

This is what I was after... I'm not really interested in the single point failures that need to be overcome, as much as I am interested in the differences that we would see.

No bolts, no gaskets, no leaks, tighter packaging, better block stability... That is where my interest lies, and what conventions would change.

PS: And yes, printing them in place, even with the difficulties of getting the durability from forgings into a printable form. I can see a clear path of development to precisely answer those issues. I am not really concerned about what the engineers are going to do to overcome these obstacles, simply in what changes when this tech becomes available.

Thank you!

[richard_leeds]

How does "I'm not really interested in the single point failures that need to be overcome" equate to "I can see a clear path of development"?

That clear path of development has to overcome some rather unforgiving matters of physics and chemistry.

[superdread]

No bolts, no gaskets, no leaks, tighter packaging, better block stability... That is where my interest lies, and what conventions would change.

The packaging doesn't get tighter, the bolts have a structural role that needs to be replaced (still more weight efficient).
Advantage in crank-inertia would enable higher RPM, but that is currently limited mainly by piston-liner durability, and lower internal losses.

This is offset by the huge disadvantage that the engine can not be opened, cleaned, no part can be replaced, so every little damage makes a completely new engine necessary.

PS: And yes, printing them in place, even with the difficulties of getting the durability from forgings into a printable form. I can see a clear path of development to precisely answer those issues. I am not really concerned about what the engineers are going to do to overcome these obstacles, simply in what changes when this tech becomes available.

I don't get the impression that you understand the importance of microstructure of a material, and the problem of recreating it in a way that could be called printing.

Before this tech comes available there will be non-oil and non-piston-ring sealing technologies (through e.g. ultra-hard ultra-smooth coating) and maybe Wankels make a comeback. Or something else completely. So your hypothetical scenario is of very questionable value.

That reminds me, replicating a µm coating will be another hurdle.

[richard_leeds]

Why would the pistons bearing on the crankpin get lighter?

I guess the reason for tighter packaging is not needing to create space for bolt holes?

[superdread]

Why would the pistons bearing on the crankpin get lighter?

I guess the reason for tighter packaging is not needing to create space for bolt holes?

Because you don't need the bolts that connect the fork to the thing on the other side.

The bolts are integrated into the engine block structure (for example in the free spaces between the cylinders), so the gained room is not really usable. The best utilization would be to put the material that replaces the structural stiffness of the bolts there.

[Gatecrasher]

That reminds me, replicating a µm coating will be another hurdle.

Selective deposition has been about for some years now at submicon levels.

The main problem with manufacturing an engine like this would not be the engineering required for the design and manufacturing, throw enough cash and good engineers at any problem and it is amazing what can come out. The real issue would be the throughput time in manfacturing.it is easier and quicker to forge, cast and machine parts than to construct at molecular levels.

100 years in the future you never know.

[superdread]

That reminds me, replicating a µm coating will be another hurdle.

Selective deposition has been about for some years now at submicon levels.

How?
A photolithographic process (like in semiconductor manufacturing) comes to mind. But that would take forever (every lacquer layer can be only a few µm thick).

Otherwise the already mentioned ion-gun process, which would take even longer.