Engine bore and stroke

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
superdread
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Re: Engine bore and stroke

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olefud wrote: Flame travel can be enhanced by promoting turbulance in the fuel charge to carry the flame front in an additive fashion to the static molecule to molecule burn. It's not entirely fixed.
Isn't that just for a better (more evenly in shorter time) mixture?
That certainly aids flame travel, but the expansion shock wave should be faster than any injection.

But breaking up the flame front would increase the surface area (between burning/unburnt fuel) -> greater heat transfer -> faster ignition of unburnt fuel.

Maybe bot effects are relevant, has anyone ever tested that? or simulated (although simulations are boring)?

olefud
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superdread wrote:
olefud wrote: Flame travel can be enhanced by promoting turbulance in the fuel charge to carry the flame front in an additive fashion to the static molecule to molecule burn. It's not entirely fixed.
Isn't that just for a better (more evenly in shorter time) mixture?
That certainly aids flame travel, but the expansion shock wave should be faster than any injection.

But breaking up the flame front would increase the surface area (between burning/unburnt fuel) -> greater heat transfer -> faster ignition of unburnt fuel.

Maybe bot effects are relevant, has anyone ever tested that? or simulated (although simulations are boring)?
I suspect that it’s another form of turbulence, i.e.”swirl” during the intake fuel flow provides a more homogenous mixture. I was thinking of “squish” in which the outer portions of the piston come into close proximity with the head and squish or pinch a relatively high velocity flow of fuel mixture towards the ignition source. It actually provides a smoother burn than the static charge.

The trick is not to detonate the thin shell of mixture remaining in the squish area. The high cooling area of the piston and head to mixture volume aids in this. And of course as the piston travels down stroke, the residual thin mixture shell also expands.

Tommy Cookers
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olefud wrote: The trick is not to detonate the thin shell of mixture remaining in the squish area. The high cooling area of the piston and head to mixture volume aids in this. And of course as the piston travels down stroke, the residual thin mixture shell also expands.
squish can be overdone, it costs work from the pistons, especially at high speeds
(and is done also to make the chamber effectively compact ?)

detonation after spark ignition might be quite useful in a near-20000rpm engine

do we really know that it doesn't happen ?
(it happens/happened quite a lot in everyday engines and does little harm as long as it only occurs (significantly) after the spark ie when expansion is happening)
EDIT also the WDC has been won with such engines

detonation can only occur after a finite delay so it unlikely to be a problem at current F1 rpm
there's a lot we don't know about these speeds, things are very different and unprecedented (except to Honda)

but the F1 engine designers/'non-developers' are surely getting it right !
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on 23 Aug 2012, 01:11, edited 1 time in total.

olefud
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Tommy Cookers wrote:
olefud wrote: The trick is not to detonate the thin shell of mixture remaining in the squish area. The high cooling area of the piston and head to mixture volume aids in this. And of course as the piston travels down stroke, the residual thin mixture shell also expands.
squish can be overdone, it costs work from the pistons, especially at high speeds
(and is done also to make the chamber effectively compact ?)

detonation after spark ignition might be quite useful in a near-20000rpm engine

do we really know that it doesn't happen ?
(it happens/happened quite a lot in everyday engines and does little harm as long as it only occurs (significantly) after the spark ie when expansion is happening)

detonation can only occur after a finite delay so it unlikely to be a problem at current F1 rpm
there's a lot we don't know about these speeds, things are very different and unprecedented (except to Honda)
I suppose that squish can be overdone but with only difficulty in a substantially over square engine due to space limitations. I’ve checked my reference books and it appears that squish speeds up flame travel by a factor of 10 to 15. Of course even the hemispherical chamber has substantial turbulence – it takes a good effort to get a stratified charge chamber. But, as A said, “Moderation in all things”.

I’m not real comfortable with detonation other than a residual ping from isolated mixture pockets. Detonation involves a fairly powerful sonic wave that propagates through the chamber cascading the detonation as it travels. This would seemingly involve more wasted energy than the squish turbulence friction –holed pistons aside.

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strad
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Since squish areas and flame travel is so important in drag racing I am following this closely.
Any more insights you'd like to share? I have always thought any detonation is a bad thing but that a little ping under WOT isn't significant,,,and I do mean a little..you know,,,so little that the driver doesn't even notice.
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

Tommy Cookers
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olefud wrote: I’m not real comfortable with detonation other than a residual ping from isolated mixture pockets. Detonation involves a fairly powerful sonic wave that propagates through the chamber cascading the detonation as it travels. This would seemingly involve more wasted energy than the squish turbulence friction –holed pistons aside.
surely if there is a problem with the combustion being too slow for this very high rpm to be efficiently used then there is some level of detonation which in principle would be beneficial (ie to release the remaining heat in time to be useful rather than too late in the expansion stroke)
Honda showed about 50 years ago that at these very high rpm and power, engines only needed about 60 Octane fuel (ie detonation delay was in effect preventing detonation)
this suggests that detonation delay is a huge factor in our case, making plausible the concept (only at these very high rpm) that most of the mixture would combust normally, then the remainder could detonate just in time
the 2014 rules will standardise (intended for partial mep) HCCI-capable injection
isn't the above a parallel concept, detonation of a minor charge at partial pressure ?
(that could be realised with the intended injection, and is a likely development before/with HCCI in F1 ?)
EDIT for HCCI read HCCI/SCCI ?
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on 23 Aug 2012, 10:44, edited 1 time in total.

olefud
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Tommy Cookers wrote:
olefud wrote: I’m not real comfortable with detonation other than a residual ping from isolated mixture pockets. Detonation involves a fairly powerful sonic wave that propagates through the chamber cascading the detonation as it travels. This would seemingly involve more wasted energy than the squish turbulence friction –holed pistons aside.
surely if there is a problem with the combustion being too slow for this very high rpm to be efficiently used then there is some level of detonation which in principle would be beneficial (ie to release the remaining heat in time to be useful rather than too late in the expansion stroke)
Honda showed about 50 years ago that at these very high rpm and power engines only needed about 60 Octane fuel, this suggests that detonation delay is a huge factor in our case, making plausible the concept (only at these very high rpm) that most of the mixture would combust normally, then the remainder could detonate just in time
the 2014 rules will standardise (partial mep) HCCI-capable injection
isn't the above a parallel concept, detonation of a minor charge at partial pressure ?
(that could be realised with the intended injection, and is a likely development before/with HCCI in F1)

I don’t have actual four-cycle experience in the 12,000-18,000 RPM range so it’s possible that the differences are in kind rather than degree. If the combustion kinetics are such that the fuel mixture hasn’t fully burned by Strad’s 90 degree point, detonating it could be useful if not optimum. Given that the charge would be expanded to half the cylinder displacement at this point (offset gudgeon pins aside), it would be difficult to generate detonation. And prior to this point there’s still time to burn the charge in a more efficient manner. IMO of course.

With relatively low RPM, boosting –which enhances flame propagation- and rule room to configure the combustion chamber AFAIK, I would be most surprised to see planned detonation. In time past they used to ballistically launch the valves off the followers. Planned detonation may also be a once necessary expedient.

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strad
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In time past they used to ballistically launch the valves off the followers
HUH?? Launching the lifters of the lobe of the cam??? Sounds crazy. :shock:
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

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matt21
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As far as I know this is sometimes done even for road engines.

For lower or midrange revs you have to close the intake valve earlier in order to avoid fresh air to be pushed back into the inlet port. For this you need a cam with a profile which is providing the right valve timing.

At higher revs the kinetic energy of the air flow is higher (Ekin = m x v²). This leads to air flowing into the cylinder even after
the piston has passed BDC.

If you launch the valves ballisticaly you can increase your lift and opening time at higher revs while maintaining a cam profile better suited to lower or mid revs.
But this leads to higher mechanical stress on the cam and the valve seat. So you have to look for surface protections to avoid damage.

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strad
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matt21 wrote:As far as I know this is sometimes done even for road engines.
If you launch the valves ballistically you can increase your lift and opening time at higher revs while maintaining a cam profile better suited to lower or mid revs.
But this leads to higher mechanical stress on the cam and you have to look for surface protections to avoid damage.
.
IF you launch the valve or the lifters you lose control of the valve and it's timing, not to mention then slamming the valve shut, no doubt with plenty of clatter and bounce, causing damage to the valve and the seat.
My thinking is you must control these parts to control timing. I will venture the school of thought on valve spring pressure has run full circle.
A little off topic if the mods will allow... Years ago I championed as light a valve spring pressure as possible to free up horsepower lost to friction and rotational drag and was argued into submission. We ran very strong valve springs.
Then because someone whose opinion was apparently more valuable then mine took up the lighter valve spring line of thought and the sheep followed..then these 20+ years later they tell me they have gone back to heavier spring with the thought that the heavy springs literally push the follower down the backside of the profile thus aiding in turning the engine.
Thoughts?
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

Tommy Cookers
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olefud wrote: I don’t have actual four-cycle experience in the 12,000-18,000 RPM range so it’s possible that the differences are in kind rather than degree. If the combustion kinetics are such that the fuel mixture hasn’t fully burned by Strad’s 90 degree point, detonating it could be useful if not optimum. Given that the charge would be expanded to half the cylinder displacement at this point (offset gudgeon pins aside), it would be difficult to generate detonation. And prior to this point there’s still time to burn the charge in a more efficient manner. IMO of course.

With relatively low RPM, boosting –which enhances flame propagation- and rule room to configure the combustion chamber AFAIK, I would be most surprised to see planned detonation.
Planned detonation may also be a once necessary expedient.
ideally spark ignition combustion adds heat at a rate related to expansion of combustion chamber volume with piston movement such that the pressure stays only just below the level that would produce detonation
heat added at lower pressure is (relatively) wasted

so combustion speed is critical, and ideally combustion should add all its heat long before the 90deg point
if SI cannot do this, then in principle a safe amount of detonation at a safe time would add the remaining heat early enough to avoid the above waste

the whole basis of ignition timing is to eliminate detonation (this is done empirically)
(it's because detonation has a (relatively constant) delay time the ignition timing must vary with rpm)

at very high rpm the delay gives less scope to detonation, so a semi-safe level of detonation can occur naturally via ign timing
F1 etc engines were showing this exactly 50 years ago, an unprecedented 10000+ rpm was driving timing tradeoff between reliability and power (semi-continuous low-level detonation was later shown in lab investigation, BRM won the WC this way)

with 2014 F1 the (direct) injection is capable of any injection-rate strategy to facilitate maximising the heat rate relative to volume/piston position ie to avoid detonation only minimally and in combination maximise work recovered from all heat
(DI always gained CR or boost etc due to detonation delay starting only on injection - nothing new)

(if combustion rate is still non-ideal, injection rate could give/manage later detonation (SCCI) of the remaining fuel mix ?)

this strategy (controlled detonation) might benefit current F1 engines (ie if they had 2014 injection)
(also the 24000 rpm engines that we would have without the freeze on bore & stroke ?)
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on 23 Aug 2012, 12:48, edited 2 times in total.

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matt21
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Seems as ballistic valves were tried back in the seventies.

link

olefud
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Cookers, let me own up to being resistant to your actually sound logic due to some old scar tissue. Awhile back a team I was working with brought in an expert, i.e. someone expensive and based far away, to work on our engine management system. He talked of offshore engines obtaining remarkable power with low octane fuel. I didn’t buy it but the team owner was taken with the concept. Long story not quite so long, he sneaked regular pump gas into the faster of our two vehicles which promptly sawed the block in half during qualifying. I almost had to physically restrain him from doing the same with our other vehicle. We got a second with the one entry. Could have been a rare win against factory competition. Any thought of detonation as a tuning aid tends to get a perhaps irrational negative reaction from me.

As to the ballistic valve deal, as I recall Ferrari used it in F-1 perhaps during the early nineties. I’m better (sometimes) at the technical than the history.

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strad
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WEll....since we haven't seen it take over I'll pass on the ballistic valve actuation. The whole concept is adverse to my way of thinking.
I like my lifters under control..my whole valve train for that matter.
Perhaps we should branch off a topic on valve timing and actuation..cams included..
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

olefud
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strad wrote:WEll....since we haven't seen it take over I'll pass on the ballistic valve actuation. The whole concept is adverse to my way of thinking.
I like my lifters under control..my whole valve train for that matter.
Perhaps we should branch off a topic on valve timing and actuation..cams included..
Point taken. The valve example was intended to show how, in the past, less than optimum expedients were taken in the absence of today’s more advanced knowledge. IMO Honda was living with detonation while today the combustion chamber would be further refined. Of course fuels now and then are always a wild card in combustion.