Coanda/Exhaust blown diffusers for road use?

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Manoah2u
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Coanda/Exhaust blown diffusers for road use?

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I was just wondering, the effect of exhaust blown diffusers is obvious significant on F1 cars,
but just how much could it mean for road cars? Offcourse i'm not talking about a VW up! or Citroen C1,
rather for example a Pagani Zonda or Ferrari for example.

I assume the financial costs of development and implemention of such a 'device' is perhaps not commercially sound,
but i would be interested to know if it has any practicability at all for road/street use.

Let's just pick a lambo aventador

http://blog.caranddriver.com/wp-content ... ssis-2.jpg

let's say we'd implement the concept of exhaust blown diffuser/floor into the aventador, and the exhausts are pointed
just behind the cabin to the floor, and directed to the rear diffuser. let's just imagine air being directed towards the
exhausts with side inlets.

would there be any benefit? would this generate more downforce in lower speeds or generate more downforce during high-end speed? (apart from it being legally possible right now).
"Explain the ending to F1 in football terms"
"Hamilton was beating Verstappen 7-0, then the ref decided F%$& rules, next goal wins
while also sending off 4 Hamilton players to make it more interesting"

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turbof1
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Re: Coanda/Exhaust blown diffusers for road use?

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Why wouldn't you point the exhaust directly into the diffuser? Coanda really was only a way to circumvent the rules. Hell, even exhaust blown diffusers are a reaction to diffuser ruling. Increase diffuser size and extend the sidewalls low enough to the ground gives the same effect.

Personally I'd discourage using exhaust gasses to get more downforce on a road car. Grip would become partly throttle dependent. Loosing grip in the middle of traffic isn't exactly healthy. You could try applying off-throttle maps, but know that fuel consumptions goes up by quite alot on a machine which you can't describe as "economical" already.
#AeroFrodo

Manoah2u
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Re: Coanda/Exhaust blown diffusers for road use?

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thanks, was just brainstorming on the possibilities of modern F1 'inventions' to implement for road use.
"Explain the ending to F1 in football terms"
"Hamilton was beating Verstappen 7-0, then the ref decided F%$& rules, next goal wins
while also sending off 4 Hamilton players to make it more interesting"

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turbof1
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Re: Coanda/Exhaust blown diffusers for road use?

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They could use the coanda effect to bend air to desirable places, but it would be surprising if they weren't already. Recent f1 concepts are more a reaction to the rules then true inventions.
#AeroFrodo

Richard
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Re: Coanda/Exhaust blown diffusers for road use?

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Isn't that just straightforward aerodynamics - ie shape the car body to direct the air to the optimum place?

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turbof1
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Re: Coanda/Exhaust blown diffusers for road use?

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richard_leeds wrote:Isn't that just straightforward aerodynamics - ie shape the car body to direct the air to the optimum place?
Yes.
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xpensive
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Re: Coanda/Exhaust blown diffusers for road use?

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turbof1 wrote:
richard_leeds wrote:Isn't that just straightforward aerodynamics - ie shape the car body to direct the air to the optimum place?
Yes.
It's about speeding up the air under the car, come rain or shine, that's all there is to it really.

Sadly enough.
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thisisatest
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Re: Coanda/Exhaust blown diffusers for road use?

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i could see using the exhaust or maybe fans as well, to help seal the diffuser while having almost-reasonable road ride heights.
im not sure cold blowing, like red bull was doing, is all that detrimental to gas consumption. it's just open butterflies with no fuel and no spark, right? i can imagine part-throttle running while cold blowing wouldnt be very smooth at road engine RPMs, though.

tuj
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Re: Coanda/Exhaust blown diffusers for road use?

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Coanda effect was just a way to skirt the rules and still get the exhaust to seal the diffuser. I would think the idea position would be to put the exhaust exits under the car right at the start of the diffuser; maximize the expansion of hot air inside the diffuser. Just my thoughts.

But when you consider road use, well, aero really shouldn't be much of a consideration unless you are driving the autobahn or a track day. While its certainly possible to design a road car generating its weight in downforce at 100kph, the drag penalty would probably be huge.

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Holm86
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Re: Coanda/Exhaust blown diffusers for road use?

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Don't know where else to put it. Just stumbled upon this and thought is was cool :-)


Manoah2u
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Re: Coanda/Exhaust blown diffusers for road use?

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wow, cool and interesting vid, thanks for sharing 8)
"Explain the ending to F1 in football terms"
"Hamilton was beating Verstappen 7-0, then the ref decided F%$& rules, next goal wins
while also sending off 4 Hamilton players to make it more interesting"

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idfx
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Joined: 20 Dec 2013, 03:18

Re: Coanda/Exhaust blown diffusers for road use?

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I had posted in another topic. I hope you enjoy
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Vortex Propulsion
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4XtX4bhqPM[/youtube]
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Fire Tornado Science
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qIUtdbPzMY[/youtube]
Insect Wing Flutter
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3fFL8ZJkKA[/youtube]
The Coanda Effect (version 2013)
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aF92B6Gon3M[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqxJe-RMUsI[/youtube]

thanks
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Moxie
Moxie
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Joined: 06 Oct 2013, 20:58

Re: Coanda/Exhaust blown diffusers for road use?

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turbof1 wrote:Why wouldn't you point the exhaust directly into the diffuser? Coanda really was only a way to circumvent the rules. Hell, even exhaust blown diffusers are a reaction to diffuser ruling. Increase diffuser size and extend the sidewalls low enough to the ground gives the same effect.

Personally I'd discourage using exhaust gasses to get more downforce on a road car. Grip would become partly throttle dependent. Loosing grip in the middle of traffic isn't exactly healthy. You could try applying off-throttle maps, but know that fuel consumptions goes up by quite alot on a machine which you can't describe as "economical" already.
Agreed. For my retirement project (still on paper) I have toyed with this same idea myself, and come to the same conclusion.

However, I do not believe that all of the energy of the exhaust needs to be wasted. In my layman's understanding of the aerodynamics involved, if more energy can be put into the constriction ahead of the diffuser then the air in this region will move faster creating more downforce. My solution would be to build catalytic converters with smooth conductive bottoms, and reflective and insulated tops. Then placement of the converters as forward as reasonable will allow some of the heat energy from the catalytic converters to enter the Venturi. While there may still be some throttle dependency, the metal heat sink of the catalytic converter is likely to reduce said variation.

Now I am still a bit confused about the actual diffuser. I have read the explanations in this forum and elsewhere, and watched the YouTube videos. I understand it for about two seconds, and then I am confused again. The pressure in the diffuser area is high, but the volume of air leaving the constriction is expanding. This expansion is what helps draw out more air from the constriction creating more downforce. Therefore if the diffuser is bigger, more downforce is created.

So in my system, as the exhaust tubes work their way toward the rear of the car, would I want them to also be flat bottomed and conductive, or would i want them to be insulated. In other words, would I want to introduce heat into the diffuser area? Or not?

Heat applied to a gas usually means expansion, which sounds desirable, but would the same heat create a back pressure on the constriction?

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idfx
53
Joined: 20 Dec 2013, 03:18

Re: Coanda/Exhaust blown diffusers for road use?

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Sound Experiment - Very nice
Amazing Water & Sound Experiment 2
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uENITui5_jU[/youtube]
Three-Dimensional Mid-Air Acoustic Manipulation -Acoustic Levitation
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odJxJRAxdFU[/youtube]
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GrandAxe
GrandAxe
12
Joined: 01 Aug 2013, 17:06

Re: Coanda/Exhaust blown diffusers for road use?

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Unfortunately, exhaust blown diffusers are never going to make it into road cars, because they are so inefficient.
The case for the coanda effect in general is very different, and we could see very innovative uses uses for it in future car designs.