Honda Power Unit

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
basti313
39
Joined: Sat Feb 22, 2014 1:49 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by basti313 » Mon Mar 14, 2016 1:14 pm

gruntguru wrote:
basti313 wrote:
gruntguru wrote: 3. Vaporisation occurs after the injector nozzle when the pressure is much lower than 500 bar. Vaporisation before the nozzle is extremely undesirable.
Sure. But according to the numbers of Merc there are 400Bar in the combustion chamber after compressing the air. So we surely need quite a lot of heat to vaporize the fuel and I guess the margins to knocking are really small.
400 Bar is peak combustion pressure - usually about 15* ATDC but probably a bit earlier in these "rapid combustion" engines.

Presumably all (certainly most) of the fuel is injected much earlier than that.
I checked the value, you are completely right. 400Bar is one order of magnitude too big.
Jef Patat wrote: When I was at university this was physics and not chemistry. I don't see where PlatinumZealot is incorrect. Instead of spreading nonsense: here are facts:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spray_(liquid_drop)
Wikipedia wrote: Drop size is critical because the large surface area of a finely atomized spray enhances fuel evaporation rate. Dispersion of the fuel into the combustion air is critical to maximize the efficiency of these systems
If you master your first class chemistry that well, I hope you remember some physics and it should make perfect sense. Atomize first to have a bigger surface and with that bigger surface comes easier vaporization.
Are you mixing up spraying into small drops with atomizing? Atomizing means that you no longer have fuel, but C, O and H atoms.
Spraying into small drops changes how fast everything evaporates, but it does not change the physics, e.g. when it starts to vaporize.

tis
1
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 11:32 am

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by tis » Mon Mar 14, 2016 1:44 pm

basti313 wrote:Are you mixing up spraying into small drops with atomizing? Atomizing means that you no longer have fuel, but C, O and H atoms.
No need to be difficult, that is not what is meant by atomizing and you know it. You don't even need to admit you were wrong, but do please stop trying to apply incorrect meanings to justify prolonging your argument.

godlameroso
149
User avatar
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:27 pm
Location: Miami FL

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by godlameroso » Mon Mar 14, 2016 4:00 pm

This, I don't think any of us are dumb enough that we can't understand each other. Some of the concepts are not easy to explain with words, but the jist is there. Try too see the idea behind the words, a finger can point to the moon but don't focus on the finger or you miss all that heavenly glory.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

dot235
5
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 10:59 am

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by dot235 » Mon Mar 14, 2016 4:50 pm

ME4ME wrote:
GoranF1 wrote:
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Is quite a good bit of power for software+fuel. Great. This should be a good start. When tokens come into play Honda will be even better.
yes ,but there are people in Japan who think Eric's 30hp claim is a bit conservative.... 8)
30hp sounds way to high to me. I mean, what software did they use before, something that a drunken trainee had written? I can see there always being room for improvement, but the Honda guys aren't stupid. They would have gotten the programming at least decent in 2015. I'm sceptical, but lets see in Melbourne.
Keep in mind they now have 2016 EPU, which differs from 2015 quite substantially I assume.
Therefore it might require different software. And I don't see any reason why it would be unlikely that the new software wasn't fully optimized till only recently when they've done some testing and collected the data and made corresponding adjustments.

And as for the fuel, I believe Ferrari (and Mercedes) made some big gains on this alone, so it's an area where there is some substantial performance to be extracted.

Jef Patat
81
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 1:40 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Jef Patat » Mon Mar 14, 2016 4:57 pm

basti313 wrote:Are you mixing up spraying into small drops with atomizing?
No I am not. Maybe you are?

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/atomize
1. To reduce to or separate into atoms.
2. To reduce to tiny particles or a fine spray.
Atom is an old term, even the greek philisophers used it. It just used to mean the smallest discrete unit. Before atoms were known as we know them today in chemistry atoms were 'bigger'. Atomization in the context of this discussion refers to some centuries ago where a fluid was atomized to the smallest known discrete particles. Did you check the previous wikipedia link?

hemichromis
20
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2015 2:00 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by hemichromis » Mon Mar 14, 2016 8:22 pm

Doesn't all this talk of combustion belong in a separate thread?

ringo
196
User avatar
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2009 9:57 am

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by ringo » Tue Mar 15, 2016 3:36 pm

400 bar combustion pressure is too high. It's around low 300s.
The fuel pressure is a different matter.
For Sure!!

taperoo2k
14
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 4:33 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by taperoo2k » Tue Mar 15, 2016 4:42 pm

hemichromis wrote:Doesn't all this talk of combustion belong in a separate thread?
Probably but we are only a few days away from seeing the Honda Power Unit in action properly, so there will be plenty to discuss then. It's the lull before the storm.

As far as the physics and chemistry goes ? We don't know the precise nature of the fuel that's been developed for the Honda ICE over the winter nor the changes they may have made to the combustion chamber, so it's all guesswork based on assumptions with a tiny dash of nuggets of truth. Nothing to get worked up over really at this point.

PlatinumZealot
245
User avatar
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by PlatinumZealot » Tue Mar 15, 2016 4:46 pm

basti313 wrote:
gruntguru wrote:
basti313 wrote: Sure. But according to the numbers of Merc there are 400Bar in the combustion chamber after compressing the air. So we surely need quite a lot of heat to vaporize the fuel and I guess the margins to knocking are really small.
400 Bar is peak combustion pressure - usually about 15* ATDC but probably a bit earlier in these "rapid combustion" engines.

Presumably all (certainly most) of the fuel is injected much earlier than that.
I checked the value, you are completely right. 400Bar is one order of magnitude too big.
Jef Patat wrote: When I was at university this was physics and not chemistry. I don't see where PlatinumZealot is incorrect. Instead of spreading nonsense: here are facts:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spray_(liquid_drop)
Wikipedia wrote: Drop size is critical because the large surface area of a finely atomized spray enhances fuel evaporation rate. Dispersion of the fuel into the combustion air is critical to maximize the efficiency of these systems
If you master your first class chemistry that well, I hope you remember some physics and it should make perfect sense. Atomize first to have a bigger surface and with that bigger surface comes easier vaporization.
Are you mixing up spraying into small drops with atomizing? Atomizing means that you no longer have fuel, but C, O and H atoms.
Spraying into small drops changes how fast everything evaporates, but it does not change the physics, e.g. when it starts to vaporize.
I can tell you are more likely a scientist than an engineer by the way you interpret things.
A thinned out puddle of water will have a faster evaporation rate than a bucket of water. Simply because the transfer interface is larger. No science needed for that just common sense.

Here is a basic example for water. Check the equation and you see where surface area comes into play. You can go into more details with other calculations and different terms as well.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/evapo ... d_690.html
"Raindrops .. drop top!"

taperoo2k
14
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 4:33 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by taperoo2k » Tue Mar 15, 2016 6:39 pm

I think I spoke too soon, short video of the Power units being put together in Japan -
https://twitter.com/HondaRacingF1/statu ... 1707209728

Vegetabill
2
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:22 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Vegetabill » Tue Mar 15, 2016 7:26 pm

taperoo2k wrote:I think I spoke too soon, short video of the Power units being put together in Japan -
https://twitter.com/HondaRacingF1/statu ... 1707209728
Dyno in video showing 214.7Nm torque and 327hp at 8k rpm? I used an online converter for the hp so please correct if I'm wrong.

hemichromis
20
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2015 2:00 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by hemichromis » Tue Mar 15, 2016 7:38 pm

Vegetabill wrote:
taperoo2k wrote:I think I spoke too soon, short video of the Power units being put together in Japan -
https://twitter.com/HondaRacingF1/statu ... 1707209728
Dyno in video showing 214.7Nm torque and 327hp at 8k rpm? I used an online converter for the hp so please correct if I'm wrong.
At about 40-45% throttle
So about 700 from the ICE at 100%?

nevill3
18
User avatar
Joined: Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:31 pm
Location: Monaco

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by nevill3 » Tue Mar 15, 2016 8:25 pm

a quick screen shot of the video......what can the experts on here tell us

Image

Video here
Sent from my ZX Spectrum

Thunders
587
User avatar
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:50 am
Location: Germany

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Thunders » Tue Mar 15, 2016 8:32 pm

Pretty sure that is the 2015 PU. The Exhaust Manifolds and the Intake Plenum are very old Friends.... :mrgreen:

taperoo2k
14
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 4:33 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by taperoo2k » Tue Mar 15, 2016 9:20 pm

Thunders wrote:Pretty sure that is the 2015 PU. The Exhaust Manifolds and the Intake Plenum are very old Friends.... :mrgreen:
It's what's on the inside that counts :shock:

Tbh I doubt Honda have shown much at all. I'd even be suspicious of the data from the dyno that pops up.