Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[MrPotatoHead]

Trying to calculate power from top speed on one of these cars without knowing the coefficient of drag, the tow from other cars, the gearing and the status of the ERS discharge is pointless.

And trying to analyze a 10 or 12% difference from the fastest car to Honda when some of the teams had a 6% difference between drivers should price the futility.

[loner]

perhaps what Wazari said about higher revv 125000 - with less fuel is the trick that need more time to achieve rather than just implementing the pre-ignition

[DiogoBrand]

Trying to calculate power from top speed on one of these cars without knowing the coefficient of drag, the tow from other cars, the gearing and the status of the ERS discharge is pointless.

And trying to analyze a 10 or 12% difference from the fastest car to Honda when some of the teams had a 6% difference between drivers should price the futility.

I'm not calculating Honda's power, I don't even know Ferrari's power to start with. I'm just estimating what the gap is (and I thought it wouldn't be that difficult for people from this forum to interpret).
And as I said repeatedly: I am considering drag and driver skill, simply because Alonso is definitely not a worse driver than Vettel, the data was taken from what is probably McLaren's best lap in the season, and the fact that it's very unlikely for McLaren to be running higher drag than Ferrari.

[Tommy Cookers]

[quote=gruntguru]
[quote=stevesingo]Would the increase on fuel pressure from ambient to 500bar cause significant increase in fuel temperature?[/quote]
No. The energy required is low because the volume change is very small.[/quote]

500 bar changes the volume by just over 4%

hands up those who believe the cyclic fuel rate can never exceed 100 kg/hr !

[etusch]

Many Times, fastest lap owner driver 's max speed is slower. We look a power indicator to max speed.
İn last race Alo's lap times not bad but he couldn't overtake rivals because of max speed. And also Vettel didn't save his place because of max speed. İt is important and i think it is related power, torque and electrical power

[etusch]

"I head yesterday that the big upgrade that Honda had coming is not working and has been cancelled," Brundle said after Practice One for the Monaco GP.

That's certainly a shame, it looks like Wazari's team CC design still has issues on top of being heavier.

İf it is true why Honda didn't say anything if it is not true why they don't deny it.

[Jolle]

I find these thread tangents a bit disappointing.

Power from these 2017-spec PUs obviously varies.

Are we talking about:

• power at the start of the PU life (first laps on a brand new PU with the lowest windage losses it will ever have)
• power at the end of the PU life (during the 5th race event for a given PU, say, once it's worn and already had its "extreme mode" duty cycle used up)
• ICE output (peak), without any ERS-K or ERS-H assistance
• ICE+ERS-H in "compounding" mode
• output in race conditions (2MJ from ES, but also a need to replenish for subsequent laps)
• output when running outside design-spec rev ranges (either very low - eg. in rain, or very high - as in Honda to get round resonance issues)
• Peak output numbers versus "power under the curve" graphs
• responsiveness/tractability figures (hypothetical example: so what if you have 1000bhp, it takes 1.5s to arrive, so the guy with 950bhp instantaneously at his disposal beats you in transient response).
• Any of the above modes when fuel-saving, or without fuel saving
• peak power in quali (4MJ limit from the ES), no need for battery to be replenished for subsequent laps, with or without extreme engine settings that do some damage to the internals of the ICE
• discussion of running below the fuel capacity limit (105kg) at the start of most races, because the weight saving at the start is worth the delta of not running full fuel flow for longer - Williams (merc) in particular do this and Honda are more limited because of their fuel consumption, and because of the lift/drag choices from each team.
• The fact that the PUs vary in output depending on environmental factors, and that various ICEs behave differently at different altitudes (Monaco is sea level, Mexico is about 7500ft) - some engines cope better than others with the thinner air, and in fact what works best at sea-level may work worst at altitude due to the way the PUs are optimised).
• The fact that a single PU, through its duty cycle, and through the engine modes used at various points, has more than one maximum output.

I'm sure there are plenty of other reasons, but can we at least agree that anyone trying to reduce the PU spec to a single, peak BHP number is missing the point?

And, don't forget the gearbox! I believe a lot of the gain in laptime comes from difference in shift speed settings. The closer they get to real seamless the more stress the gears take. All the millisecond that you earn in a lap, count up as quite a lot over a lap.

Exactly! Besides shift speed let's not forget gear ratio!

Because of the fuel flow limiter the PU's have almost a steady max power output from 10.500 rpm until 15.000. So, gear ratio's aren't that importent anymore.

[MrPotatoHead]

Area under the curve is why they are revving over 10,500 and why gear ratios can be different.
You cannot simply consider peak power.

[aran.vtec]

"I head yesterday that the big upgrade that Honda had coming is not working and has been cancelled," Brundle said after Practice One for the Monaco GP.

That's certainly a shame, it looks like Wazari's team CC design still has issues on top of being heavier.

İf it is true why Honda didn't say anything if it is not true why they don't deny it.

it certainly is a shame might also explain why they trying to improve the current motor cause the are not coming up with a better one

[shady]

İf it is true why Honda didn't say anything if it is not true why they don't deny it.

because they are busy working.

[loner]

its not like iam the only one who think its bizarre Honda can't do the same power output +/- 20 hp of a powerunit
been made by Mercedes or Ferrari or Renault so if they are late it must be for something worthy
regardless the last 2 season in the V

[MrPotatoHead]

its not like iam the only one who think its bizarre Honda can't do the same power output +/- 20 hp of a powerunit
been made by Mercedes or Ferrari or Renault so if they are late it must be for something worthy
regardless the last 2 season in the V

Well it's only bizarre if you think it is easy to make the levels of power and efficiency that Mercedes and Ferrari have achieved.
It's not easy by any stretch of the imagination.

I've been a little harsh on them at times myself.

[etusch]

its not like iam the only one who think its bizarre Honda can't do the same power output +/- 20 hp of a powerunit
been made by Mercedes or Ferrari or Renault so if they are late it must be for something worthy
regardless the last 2 season in the V

Well it's only bizarre if you think it is easy to make the levels of power and efficiency that Mercedes and Ferrari have achieved.
It's not easy by any stretch of the imagination.

I've been a little harsh on them at times myself.

It is not easy and Honda's approach is different from others. For example Honda CBR 1000RR development Honda made. Bmw S1000RR is 200 bg but Honda don't try to do it. They are developing a bike for being competitive in wsbk. But still don't try to make extreme power. They are trying reducing weight reducing friction, improving brake etc. I think this approach is one of the many reasons their lack of power. Think Honda's PU. less weight and lower cog.

[MrPotatoHead]

its not like iam the only one who think its bizarre Honda can't do the same power output +/- 20 hp of a powerunit
been made by Mercedes or Ferrari or Renault so if they are late it must be for something worthy
regardless the last 2 season in the V

Well it's only bizarre if you think it is easy to make the levels of power and efficiency that Mercedes and Ferrari have achieved.
It's not easy by any stretch of the imagination.

I've been a little harsh on them at times myself.

It is not easy and Honda's approach is different from others. For example Honda CBR 1000RR development Honda made. Bmw S1000RR is 200 bg but Honda don't try to do it. They are developing a bike for being competitive in wsbk. But still don't try to make extreme power. They are trying reducing weight reducing friction, improving brake etc. I think this approach is one of the many reasons their lack of power. Think Honda's PU. less weight and lower cog.

It may be a different philosophy or they might just have no idea what the others are doing. And so went off on a different tangent.
Kind of like how people here can only assume or guess. Maybe they are in the same boat. That's one of the downsides of being on the other side of the world outside of the F1 bubble.

[SameSame]

Honda confirming their MGU-H can only last for two races worth of mileage.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-h ... es-911390/