Factory team vs customer team: same equipment or not?

[turbof1]

i readed something interesting on autosport, with Gerard Lopez commenting on the Mercedes deal. He was asked if he would make a full power train deal, which he denied and said that would lock them into a certain suspension geometry, like Force India.

However, we know that mercedes houses their gearbox in a carbon 'shroud'. The shroud, actually more an oversized box, has multiple functions including providing stifness and the rear crash structure, but the most important one is that it allows to change the suspension geometry at any time the team desires, unlike the more traditional way of merging the suspension pickup points in the gearbox, which would only allow the team to change the geometry after 6 races ( or earlier if the gearbox breaks or a penalty is taken).

But Lopez clearly states it locks them into a specific geometry. Therefore, is the conclusion right that Mercedes delivers something like a "b-spec" powertrain to the customer teams?

[Facts Only]

The engines are all built equal. Some are built to different specifications depending on customer requirements, this can often be to do with the fuel used (Mclaren use Mobile instead of petronas for instance) but none are built any worse or better.

They are all run on the dyno before being signed off, at this point the engines with the most power (we're talking 1-2bhp difference at most) may make there way to the factory team pool although I'm sure that nobody would ever confirm this to be true but the engine suppliers would not miss this trick.

In terms of the FIF1/lotus/Merc gearbox comments I think Lopez may have been looking for a diplomatic way to answer the question rather than saying "I think our gearbox is better" or "We cant afford it" or "We need something that we can stick Total lubricants in to keep the sponsorship".

Or it could be that while the Merc gearbox is a seperate cassette in a carbon case, the carbon case is so closely wrapped around the cassette that the range of changes possible are quite small and the Lotus may have a completely different rear suspension philosiphy that cannot be accomadated.
Or it may affect their rear aero layout more than they would like.
Or they may have a vastly different clutch layout that they prefer.

[Pierce89]

Mclaren made it clear that they believe Merc has provided them with much inferior programming to the works team, but at the same time, they prevent Mclaren from improving it. Physically though, differences are all down to installation.

[Brian Coat]

It's clear that they all get the same engine ('dyno dibs' notwithstanding).

Where the factory benefits most, I think is system integration.

As an example, Mercedes obviously thinks their 2-stage inter cooler route gives a benefit overall and they probably had a chance to work on this early and work it into the overall design: side pods, weight budget etc.

[wuzak]

Force India have a technical partnership with McLaren. I believe that the gearbox they use is McLaren's.

As far as what customer teams get, Ferrari's all get the same - engine and gearbox are the same as the factory teams. They all use the same fuel too.

[Facts Only]

Force India have a technical partnership with McLaren. I believe that the gearbox they use is McLaren's.

Nope FIF1 have used a Mercedes Gearbox since the start of 2014.

[turbof1]

I get that the engines have to be made equal, but does the gearbox have to?

Scarbs explained the mercedes gearbox as a very small and compressed machinery, with the "shroud" being much much larger (purposely to envelop oil lines, rear crash structure and to add stiffness). I don't think the gearbox itself would be stiff enough to hold the suspension. That's why I doubt FI gets the same gearbox.

[Facts Only]

I get that the engines have to be made equal, but does the gearbox have to?

Scarbs explained the mercedes gearbox as a very small and compressed machinery, with the "shroud" being much much larger (purposely to envelop oil lines, rear crash structure and to add stiffness). I don't think the gearbox itself would be stiff enough to hold the suspension. That's why I doubt FI gets the same gearbox.

I'm absolutely sure that the gearbox casette is the same.

(speculation time now) perhaps then FIF1 make their own carbon shroud to meet their own specific needs. if this is the case maybe Lotus with there own gearbox department felt it was more cost/time effective to carry on with their own complete gearbox designs rather than start from scratch to integrate the Mercedes Casette whereas FIF1 felt that moving those resources to other areas (Aero/Suspension design) would better suit them.

Remember that completely new gearboxes were needed for 2014, FIF1 saved a massive development cost by using Mercedes system whereas Lotus have already spent that money to make there own 2014 box + tooling and dev costs and they dont want to essentially waste all that work and money and incur more costs integrating the Merc box.

[AnthonyG]

Lotus allready has an advanced test rig for gearboxes, I think development of their own gearbox isn't as expensive for them as it is for Force India.

[turbof1]

(speculation time now)

There goes your motto . Of course the thread is based on a statement from Lopez; I'm extrapolating that statement to a bigger message, which in itself is speculation.

(speculation time now) perhaps then FIF1 make their own carbon shroud to meet their own specific needs. if this is the case maybe Lotus with there own gearbox department felt it was more cost/time effective to carry on with their own complete gearbox designs rather than start from scratch to integrate the Mercedes Casette whereas FIF1 felt that moving those resources to other areas (Aero/Suspension design) would better suit them.

Possible. But we have to conclude then that Lopez made a false statement, either as a lie to hide the real reason or simply because he doesn't know what he is talking about, since he stated the gearbox would lock them into a certain geometry while, if we assume that, the gearbox needs to have a shroud in order to get the suspension pickup points incorporated.

[Facts Only]

(speculation time now)

There goes your motto . Of course the thread is based on a statement from Lopez; I'm extrapolating that statement to a bigger message, which in itself is speculation.

(speculation time now) perhaps then FIF1 make their own carbon shroud to meet their own specific needs. if this is the case maybe Lotus with there own gearbox department felt it was more cost/time effective to carry on with their own complete gearbox designs rather than start from scratch to integrate the Mercedes Casette whereas FIF1 felt that moving those resources to other areas (Aero/Suspension design) would better suit them.

Possible. But we have to conclude then that Lopez made a false statement, either as a lie to hide the real reason or simply because he doesn't know what he is talking about, since he stated the gearbox would lock them into a certain geometry while, if we assume that, the gearbox needs to have a shroud in order to get the suspension pickup points incorporated.

That was my initial thought, that he was making that statement to be diplomatic.

We all have to stray from the straight and narow sometimes, a bit of speculation helps pass a dull day.

[marcush.]

isn´t the mounting geometry of the motor towards the gearbox defined in the regs as well? This would enable a team to carry on with their existing gearbox more or less ..I think Mercedes has the clutch engine side mounted and Reanult transmission side ....so there is some adaption necessary .its not direct bolt on.Sure the installtion still is a compromise as the transmission length flange to Driveshaft axis is different .