A pure fuel-flow formula?

[matt21]

How bout a power limited formula?

Torque sensor on each driveshaft, use the existing wheel speed sensors, and then do what you want upstream.

That's teh whole idea of a fuel flow formula.

Except it doesn't restrict you to a petrol ICE as the only alternative...

Maybe a turbine-electric car would not be to bad. With a multi-stage turbine the efficency should not be to bad.

[goonerf1]

I've been saying for a long time that regulations written on the basis of the properties of the fuel, rather than the size or complexity of the engine, is the way Formula 1 should go. It just makes so much sense to me.

These rules are "supposed" to be all about fuel efficiency, which I think everyone, manufacturers, privateers, and joe public alike, would all fully support.

Where things go wrong is in forcing every team to run the same format / configuration of engine.

In the WEC, Porsche run a V4, Audi a V6, and Toyota a V8, why shouldn't F1 allow manufacturers to do the same? Each of those companies clearly feels, inline with their own agendas and ideologies, that that is the way they would like to go. If F1 opened up the engine regs, all the above manufacturers would have to do is re-organise their PU within an F1 car chassis. At present, they would all have to design a completely new system, to the cost of hundreds of millions, just to satisfy F1's regs. Why should they? I dare say you and I wouldn't.

Likewise, this sort of fuel properties regulation would allow small engine manufacturers to join aswell, ie: Cosworth. Patrick Head said at the Monaco GP this year you could have 800hp for 2 million euros a year. Imagine if a 2 million euro Cosworth engine beat a 20 million + Mercedes engine. Or even if a team surviving on 50 million a year beat a team racing on 200 / 250 million. How brilliant would that be! These are exactly the kind of underdog stories that I feel should be part of F1.

The WEC call this their "equivalence of performance" regulations, and although the formula is hideously complicated, I think ultimately, this is the best way forward for everybody.

[Hobbs04]

Steve matchett has always argued something like this stating give each team 100 kilos of fuel and let them race. He said let the teams go which ever route they think is the most efficient.

Unfortunately I think the gap between each team would be to great but the trickle down to your Toyota Camry would be more relevant.

[langwadt]

How bout a power limited formula?

Torque sensor on each driveshaft, use the existing wheel speed sensors, and then do what you want upstream.

might work to equalize the performance of standard touring cars, but for something like F1 I would find it too restrictive, once you make enough power there is little point in developing anything further

[Tim.Wright]

How bout a power limited formula?

Torque sensor on each driveshaft, use the existing wheel speed sensors, and then do what you want upstream.

might work to equalize the performance of standard touring cars, but for something like F1 I would find it too restrictive, once you make enough power there is little point in developing anything further

Too restrictive? What powertrain are you going to use to reach this limit? combustion? hybrid? full electric? fuel cell? hydrogen? nuclear? pneumatic? How will your chosen system package for mass, CG location and aerodynamics?

are you going to have energy recovery? Will it be worth the weight penalty? Will it be using the same technology as the main powertrain or do you want to prioritise efficiency? or mass? or energy density?

will you run rwd? awd? does your chosen technology allow you to take advantage of torque vectoring? in fact, what IS the optimum torque split anyway?

Will your power source need mid race topping up? can this be done fast enough to outweigh the disadvantage of stopping in the first place?

Once you have solved all of these open points, then we can discuss loosening the rules a little bit. I'd estimate that it would take DECADES for the motorsport industry to converge to a true optimum powertrain if the only real limit was power output.

[langwadt]

How bout a power limited formula?

Torque sensor on each driveshaft, use the existing wheel speed sensors, and then do what you want upstream.

might work to equalize the performance of standard touring cars, but for something like F1 I would find it too restrictive, once you make enough power there is little point in developing anything further

Too restrictive? What powertrain are you going to use to reach this limit? combustion? hybrid? full electric? fuel cell? hydrogen? nuclear? pneumatic? How will your chosen system package for mass, CG location and aerodynamics?

are you going to have energy recovery? Will it be worth the weight penalty? Will it be using the same technology as the main powertrain or do you want to prioritise efficiency? or mass? or energy density?

will you run rwd? awd? does your chosen technology allow you to take advantage of torque vectoring? in fact, what IS the optimum torque split anyway?

Will your power source need mid race topping up? can this be done fast enough to outweigh the disadvantage of stopping in the first place?

Once you have solved all of these open points, then we can discuss loosening the rules a little bit. I'd estimate that it would take DECADES for the motorsport industry to converge to a true optimum powertrain if the only real limit was power output.

restrictive is maybe the wrong word, I'm taking engine wise, for the foreseeable future nothing will beat a gasoline engine
and if all usual configurations will make the allowed power there is little to gain from development

[xpensive]

I think it would be mighty xciting for us pistonheads, but would the general public get it?

[wuzak]

I've been saying for a long time that regulations written on the basis of the properties of the fuel, rather than the size or complexity of the engine, is the way Formula 1 should go. It just makes so much sense to me.

These rules are "supposed" to be all about fuel efficiency, which I think everyone, manufacturers, privateers, and joe public alike, would all fully support.

Where things go wrong is in forcing every team to run the same format / configuration of engine.

In the WEC, Porsche run a V4, Audi a V6, and Toyota a V8, why shouldn't F1 allow manufacturers to do the same? Each of those companies clearly feels, inline with their own agendas and ideologies, that that is the way they would like to go. If F1 opened up the engine regs, all the above manufacturers would have to do is re-organise their PU within an F1 car chassis. At present, they would all have to design a completely new system, to the cost of hundreds of millions, just to satisfy F1's regs. Why should they? I dare say you and I wouldn't.

Likewise, this sort of fuel properties regulation would allow small engine manufacturers to join aswell, ie: Cosworth. Patrick Head said at the Monaco GP this year you could have 800hp for 2 million euros a year. Imagine if a 2 million euro Cosworth engine beat a 20 million + Mercedes engine. Or even if a team surviving on 50 million a year beat a team racing on 200 / 250 million. How brilliant would that be! These are exactly the kind of underdog stories that I feel should be part of F1.

The WEC call this their "equivalence of performance" regulations, and although the formula is hideously complicated, I think ultimately, this is the best way forward for everybody.

The WEC Audis are Diesel, the Porsche and Toyota are petrol - that's where one part of equivalence comes in. Another part is the amount of ERS used. The higher the ERS system power/storage the lesser the fuel flow rate allowed.

If a single fuel flow rate for each type of fuel would simplify matters. Especially if ERS is not used or restricted in use somehow - restricting it to rear wheel recovery only has a limiting effect on how much can be recovered.

[J.A.W.]

& don't forget the actual BTU/volume equivalence of the fuel used..

Diesel-petrol-methanol all have markedly differing characteristics in a number of performance areas..

[xpensive]

Or should we make it an energy-formula, massflow of fuel all realted to its energy content?

[Tim.Wright]

restrictive is maybe the wrong word, I'm taking engine wise, for the foreseeable future nothing will beat a gasoline engine
and if all usual configurations will make the allowed power there is little to gain from development

Power isn't the only thing affecting vehicle performance. Even if the formula mandated only ICE power, I'd guess it would be the best part of a decade before the teams converged on a true "optimum" in terms of vehicle performance.

[Cold Fussion]

How bout a power limited formula?

Torque sensor on each driveshaft, use the existing wheel speed sensors, and then do what you want upstream.

Would you govern a monotonically increasing power curve so joe blogs is still left with the engine notes they desire?

[matt21]

Or should we make it an energy-formula, massflow of fuel all realted to its energy content?

I would go with Hobbs04 and stretch it alittle bit further.
Give them an amount of energy, lets say 4.3 GJ (equals 100kg of petrol) and use whatever source they like.
Why even restrict the fuel flow. If you only have a limited amount of energy, you have to stretch it for the race and you cannot run unlimited power.

For qualifying you can adapt the available energy accordingly.

And we had this already, back in the eighties.

[CBeck113]

Or should we make it an energy-formula, massflow of fuel all realted to its energy content?

I would go with Hobbs04 and stretch it alittle bit further.
Give them an amount of energy, lets say 4.3 GJ (equals 100kg of petrol) and use whatever source they like.
Why even restrict the fuel flow. If you only have a limited amount of energy, you have to stretch it for the race and you cannot run unlimited power.

For qualifying you can adapt the available energy accordingly.

And we had this already, back in the eighties.

This would bring the massive issue with cars sprinting for the first laps, getting out in front, and then cruising to the finish line while keeping the other cars behind them. This is why I would prefer the fuel flow limit instead.

[Pingguest]

How bout a power limited formula?

Torque sensor on each driveshaft, use the existing wheel speed sensors, and then do what you want upstream.

That's teh whole idea of a fuel flow formula.

No, it is not. With a fuel-flow limit a more efficient engine simply generates more power than a less efficient one.