Overdriven transmission

[autodoctor911]

I think that if you make the annuli of the 8 gear sets the MGU-K and each is capable of different RPM and torque, you would be using 8 MGU-ks and you are only allowed one. Plus it must transfer energy only to the engine, engine ancillaries or other ancillaries. I would think that if it could apply directly to the gearbox, it would have to show it in the diagram at the bottom of the regulations.

In order for it to be legal, I think the gearbox motors would need to be separate from the Battery pack and fall under the other energy storage allowance. Apparenty the driver does not need to control the gear changes directly, but there must be only one gear change per shift by the driver, and some other control strategy restrictions, but I think your system is able to comply to those rules.

[gruntguru]

Efficiencies of 96/98 percent in F1 gearboxes/transmissions/ drive trains has always been sufficient until today. In the past it was always possible to burn a bit more fuel.
With the economy formula we now have it begins to show up the lay shaft stepped gearbox as the inefficient component it has always been.

It has never been possible to "make a bit more power" to cover for an inefficient transmission. There have always been rules to limit power and the fuel flow limit is just another.

F1 engineers have always fought for every last drop of transmission efficiency.

[autodoctor911]

Uh-oh. one more rule problem. gearbox must use 85mm shaft centers. Planetary is 0mm between shaft centers.

Edit: I was mistaken, it is a maximum of 85mm, so should not be an issue.

[gruntguru]

The first planetary set sun gear is directly driven by the crankshaft, there is no mechanical clutch.
The clutch operates by applying electrical energy to the forward electric motor coil which slows the forward planetary annulus from free wheel neutral to stationary . . . . .

Have you sourced a MGU to perform this function? The torque required is very large - 2 to 3 times engine torque.

You say it "applies electrical energy". This slowing operation is actually a "generator" mode so it would be extracting electrical energy and sending it to the ES.

[autogyro]

I think that if you make the annuli of the 8 gear sets the MGU-K and each is capable of different RPM and torque, you would be using 8 MGU-ks and you are only allowed one. Plus it must transfer energy only to the engine, engine ancillaries or other ancillaries. I would think that if it could apply directly to the gearbox, it would have to show it in the diagram at the bottom of the regulations.

In order for it to be legal, I think the gearbox motors would need to be separate from the Battery pack and fall under the other energy storage allowance. Apparenty the driver does not need to control the gear changes directly, but there must be only one gear change per shift by the driver, and some other control strategy restrictions, but I think your system is able to comply to those rules.

MGUK depends on how you wire and control the function.

[autogyro]

Efficiencies of 96/98 percent in F1 gearboxes/transmissions/ drive trains has always been sufficient until today. In the past it was always possible to burn a bit more fuel.
With the economy formula we now have it begins to show up the lay shaft stepped gearbox as the inefficient component it has always been.

It has never been possible to "make a bit more power" to cover for an inefficient transmission. There have always been rules to limit power and the fuel flow limit is just another.

F1 engineers have always fought for every last drop of transmission efficiency.

I disagree.
At least that is I do agree that F1 engineers have fought to improve gearbox efficiency working with an inefficient basic concept.
Previous F1 formula have not had anywhere near the same fuel restrictions and the power available has always been higher than the amount usable by the driver.
The facts concerning wheel spin and unlimited top speeds dependent on gearing prove this.
Conserving fuel is a whole new ball park.

[autogyro]

The first planetary set sun gear is directly driven by the crankshaft, there is no mechanical clutch.
The clutch operates by applying electrical energy to the forward electric motor coil which slows the forward planetary annulus from free wheel neutral to stationary . . . . .

Have you sourced a MGU to perform this function? The torque required is very large - 2 to 3 times engine torque.

You say it "applies electrical energy". This slowing operation is actually a "generator" mode so it would be extracting electrical energy and sending it to the ES.

You are correct gg, I often get my motor muddled with my generator.
Obviously the engine torque transfer from the ic is modulated during initial take off and during gear shifts.
At this time the vehicle is primarily electrically driven through CV apply from one fixed condition to another.
Over all torque transfer is constant.

[gruntguru]

. . . and have you found an MGU that will provide the enormous torque required?

[gruntguru]

Efficiencies of 96/98 percent in F1 gearboxes/transmissions/ drive trains has always been sufficient until today. In the past it was always possible to burn a bit more fuel.
With the economy formula we now have it begins to show up the lay shaft stepped gearbox as the inefficient component it has always been.

It has never been possible to "make a bit more power" to cover for an inefficient transmission. There have always been rules to limit power and the fuel flow limit is just another.

F1 engineers have always fought for every last drop of transmission efficiency.

I disagree.
At least that is I do agree that F1 engineers have fought to improve gearbox efficiency working with an inefficient basic concept.
Previous F1 formula have not had anywhere near the same fuel restrictions and the power available has always been higher than the amount usable by the driver.
The facts concerning wheel spin and unlimited top speeds dependent on gearing prove this.
Conserving fuel is a whole new ball park.

I don't think you have kept up with F1 this past season. The 100kg/race fuel restriction has had little effect on power usage. The 100kg/hr restriction is simply a power limiting method. The power available to the driver (>800hp total) with lower DF is further in excess of what is useable than in the previous season - just ask Vettel.

There has not been a season in the last 30 years where a team has been prepared to say "well we have more hp than we need - who cares about 1% or 2% lost in the gearbox." Neither has there been a season where top speed was unlimited except by gearing. DF and drag has always been traded against top speed so extra power has always been keenly sought after.

[autogyro]

I don't think you have kept up with F1 this past season. The 100kg/race fuel restriction has had little effect on power usage. The 100kg/hr restriction is simply a power limiting method. The power available to the driver (>800hp total) with lower DF is further in excess of what is useable than in the previous season - just ask Vettel.

There has not been a season in the last 30 years where a team has been prepared to say "well we have more hp than we need - who cares about 1% or 2% lost in the gearbox." Neither has there been a season where top speed was unlimited except by gearing. DF and drag has always been traded against top speed so extra power has always been keenly sought after.

I think you are mixing up excess power available at any one point in the race, with the available power available from good fuel management for the complete grand prix distance GG.
If you were correct there would be no need for drivers to save fuel with frugal EM settings.

Of course engineers have never accepted they have enough power and they strive for more from any innovation.
That does not negate the inefficiency of a layshaft stepped ratio gearbox.

[autogyro]

. . . and have you found an MGU that will provide the enormous torque required?

Strange you consider an enormous torque requirement when electric motor/generators of KERS size are well capable of working as the vehicle prime mover.
As I explained the initial CV electrical clutch actuation only drives the vehicle sufficiently to a speed where the forward annulus locks to the case, probably a max of 15mph, after that there is a direct mechanical drive from the ic engine to the rear wheels.
In actual fact the ic engine does not even have to be running and an application of electrical energy can then be used to start the ic engine if required without the weight of an on board starter motor (no more beached engine stalls).
During gear shifts the torque from the ic engine is modulated to balance the shift overlap.
During the overlap the drive is a reaction to the application of electical braking energy to the higher ratio annulus and applied energy to speed up the lower ratio annulus.
The reverse on downshifts.
The electrical energy capability required depends on the amount the ic torque output is modulated on upshifts, or the amount of braking energy required from the electrical system during power unit braking on downshifts.

[autodoctor911]

I think since the torque on the MGUs for each gear would be very high, why not use an annulus with gear teeth on the outside and a small pinion driven by a smaller motor?

[gruntguru]

. . . and have you found an MGU that will provide the enormous torque required?

Strange you consider an enormous torque requirement when electric motor/generators of KERS size are well capable of working as the vehicle prime mover.
As I explained the initial CV electrical clutch actuation only drives the vehicle sufficiently to a speed where the forward annulus locks to the case, probably a max of 15mph, after that there is a direct mechanical drive from the ic engine to the rear wheels.
In actual fact the ic engine does not even have to be running and an application of electrical energy can then be used to start the ic engine if required without the weight of an on board starter motor (no more beached engine stalls).
During gear shifts the torque from the ic engine is modulated to balance the shift overlap.
During the overlap the drive is a reaction to the application of electical braking energy to the higher ratio annulus and applied energy to speed up the lower ratio annulus.
The reverse on downshifts.
The electrical energy capability required depends on the amount the ic torque output is modulated on upshifts, or the amount of braking energy required from the electrical system during power unit braking on downshifts.

That sounds like a very longhand way of saying no.

For a full power launch your first gear MGU needs a torque capability of 2 to 3 times the IC engine - plus inertial effects if the IC engine is to be slowed during a high rpm launch. If you had done the calculations and sourced a suitable MGU, you would have discovered by now that your ultra-compact ESERU has become enormous.

autodoctor911 has identified one solution but the max speed of the MGU in a stationary free-rev situation will be IC rpm x gear ratio. Essentially, if the ESERU is to be capable of full power launches, the first gear MGU must have at least the power rating of the ICE.

[autodoctor911]

I wouldn't rule it out yet. An MGU for this purpose need only handle the power for a second or so on a launch and much less time for shifting. I think it might be able to have one larger mgu for the 1st gear and 7 smaller ones. the extra mass is somewhat offset by the absence of a clutch.

Hydraulic motors and an accumulator may be a better way to go though.

[autogyro]

I wouldn't rule it out yet. An MGU for this purpose need only handle the power for a second or so on a launch and much less time for shifting. I think it might be able to have one larger mgu for the 1st gear and 7 smaller ones. the extra mass is somewhat offset by the absence of a clutch.

Exactly.
I have raced many types of vehicle and I cannot remember one where I used full power at launch.
The use of the forward electrically driven annulus from stationary is solely to establish vehicle inertia.
In fact electrical launch can completely eliminate wheel spin and allow a crawl capability to unbeach the car from gravel traps.
If the ic engine is fully modulated during ratio shifts very little energy is needed.