Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

[Blackout]

Sounds very similar to the PU106D.
Mainly because of the length of the plenum.
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/vide ... 62058.html

Glad i am not the only onw that think so!

[roon]

Rather than a hydraulic system they could use a open pneumatic system connected to the front wheels to store energy in a pressure vessel during braking. Then the same air can be let out into the exhaust to blow the turbine there by
1)reducing backpressure and increasing power
2)increasing generation from MGUH

(But I think there are regulations about feeding air into the exhaust and intake system)

Interesting idea. Line 5.14.1 states that all air entering the engine must pass through the normal, regulated intake. The turbine is defined as part of the engine. So the feed for the pump would have to split off the main intake. The braking regs say that no other system except for the PU may provide a braking force. Whether or not adding a pneumatic pump & reservoir to the PU would specifically contravene any rules, I'm unsure.

Another benefit may be in supplementing the charge air, reducing the work required by the compressor, leaving more energy to be harvested from the turbine.

What sort of pump/transmission type would you propose? The energy available from the front axle is huge.

[PlatinumZealot]

Piston compressor or rotary screw compressor would work. Both are normally heavy items.. But can be engineered to be light weight...

U either will put these in the front wheel hubs. Or use front driveshaft.. Or rear geabox. Since they recovered air pressure is not part of the regulated MJ from braking?

[wuzak]

Piston compressor or rotary screw compressor would work. Both are normally heavy items.. But can be engineered to be light weight...

U either will put these in the front wheel hubs. Or use front driveshaft.. Or rear gearbox. Since they recovered air pressure is not part of the regulated MJ from braking?

You have to change that pressure into electrical energy at some stage.

How would you do that?

The MGUK is restricted to recovering 2MJ - whether it is from braking or form loading the engine under acceleration.

Also, as stated above, the non-ERS energy store can be no larger than 300kJ, while no more than 20kJ could be recovered by a non ERS (ie not MGUK or MGUH) system at greater than 2kW. The cost of the weight and complexity of such a system would surely be greater than the benefit?

[Pierce89]

You have an accumulator act as a reservoir to store hydraulic pressure, much like the fuel pump is driven by the engine to create 500bar pressure, you could charge an accumulator with hydraulic pressure from a gear driven by the transmission input shaft or crankshaft or like any other engine ancillary. You would store this hydraulic pressure independent of the ES and release it to directly drive the MGU-K when needed. This system would be completely separate from the ERS system.

According to the energy flow chart, the engine ancillaries can send power to and from the MGU-K
http://static.sportskeeda.com/wp-conten ... 24x606.jpg

And any non ERS energy storage can recover up to 300kJ. Or about 2 seconds of extra deployment. Although those 300kJ don't specify if they have the same per lap requirement as the ES to MGU-K

Here are the regulations regarding 5.13

5.13 Engine ancillaries :
All coolant pumps, oil pumps, scavenge pumps, oil/air separators, hydraulic pumps and fuel pumps delivering more than 10bar must be mechanically driven directly from the engine and/or MGU-K with a fixed speed ratio.

Oh.. you should of just referenced the Audi air hybrid system. Most here are probably familiar with it. You just lost me when started talking about hydrostatic drive. I was thinking of torque converters or escalators.

[PlatinumZealot]

Piston compressor or rotary screw compressor would work. Both are normally heavy items.. But can be engineered to be light weight...

U either will put these in the front wheel hubs. Or use front driveshaft.. Or rear gearbox. Since they recovered air pressure is not part of the regulated MJ from braking?

You have to change that pressure into electrical energy at some stage.

How would you do that?

The MGUK is restricted to recovering 2MJ - whether it is from braking or form loading the engine under acceleration.

Also, as stated above, the non-ERS energy store can be no larger than 300kJ, while no more than 20kJ could be recovered by a non ERS (ie not MGUK or MGUH) system at greater than 2kW. The cost of the weight and complexity of such a system would surely be greater than the benefit?

I thought FW17 was implying using the stored air pressure to boost the engine through the compressor inlet so i was never thinking of conversion to electrical energy. So the system would be separate from the ERS. Basically a cheat system.

[wuzak]

Piston compressor or rotary screw compressor would work. Both are normally heavy items.. But can be engineered to be light weight...

U either will put these in the front wheel hubs. Or use front driveshaft.. Or rear gearbox. Since they recovered air pressure is not part of the regulated MJ from braking?

You have to change that pressure into electrical energy at some stage.

How would you do that?

The MGUK is restricted to recovering 2MJ - whether it is from braking or form loading the engine under acceleration.

Also, as stated above, the non-ERS energy store can be no larger than 300kJ, while no more than 20kJ could be recovered by a non ERS (ie not MGUK or MGUH) system at greater than 2kW. The cost of the weight and complexity of such a system would surely be greater than the benefit?

I thought FW17 was implying using the stored air pressure to boost the engine through the compressor inlet so i was never thinking of conversion to electrical energy. So the system would be separate from the ERS. Basically a cheat system.

I think that is not allowed:

5.1.6 Pressure charging may only be effected by the use of a sole single stage compressor linked to a sole single stage exhaust turbine by a shaft assembly parallel to the engine crankshaft and within 25mm of the car centre line. The shaft must be designed so as to ensure that the shaft assembly, the compressor and the turbine always rotate about a common axis and at the same angular velocity, an electrical motor generator (MGU-H) may be directly coupled to it. The shaft may not be mechanically linked to any other device.

[godlameroso]

If you're extremely clever you could have an accumulator powered by the front brakes. As long as the system complies with 11.1, 11.5 and 11.7, if you were to have a hydraulic accumulator to supplement the MGU-K, then it would either have to be a very complex hydraulic system featuring the brakes and the engine, or an engine powered ancillary that can send power to the MGU-K.

11.1 Brake circuits and pressure distribution :
11.1.1 With the exception of a power unit, all cars must be equipped with only one brake system. This system must comprise solely of two separate hydraulic circuits operated by one pedal, one circuit operating on the two front wheels and the other on the two rear wheels. This system must be designed so that if a failure occurs in one circuit the pedal will still operate the brakes in the other.
The diameters of the master cylinders acting on the two rear wheels and the two front wheels must be within 2mm of each other and have the same available travel. The same principle must be applied in multi-stage master cylinder designs.
11.1.2 The brake system must be designed in order that the force exerted on the brake pads within each circuit are the same at all times.
11.1.3 Any powered device, other than the system referred to in Article 11.7, which is capable of altering the configuration or affecting the performance of any part of the brake system is forbidden.
11.1.4 Any change to, or modulation of, the brake system whilst the car is moving must be made by the driver's direct physical input or by the system referred to in Article 11.7, and may not be pre-set.


11.5 Brake pressure modulation :
11.5.1 No braking system may be designed to prevent wheels from locking when the driver applies pressure to the brake pedal.
11.5.2 No braking system may be designed to increase the pressure in the brake calipers above that achievable by the driver applying pressure to the pedal under all conditions.


11.7 Rear brake control system :
The pressure in the rear braking circuit may be provided by a powered control system provided that :
a) The driver brake pedal is connected to a hydraulic master cylinder that generates a pressure source that can be applied to the rear braking circuit if the powered system is disabled.
b) The powered system is controlled by the control electronics described in Article 8.2.

Here's 8.2
8.2 Control electronics :
8.2.1 All components of the power unit, gearbox, clutch and differential, in addition to all associated actuators, must be controlled by an Electronic Control Unit (ECU) which has been manufactured by an FIA designated supplier to a specification determined by the FIA.
The ECU may only be used with FIA approved software and may only be connected to the control system wiring loom, sensors and actuators in a manner specified by the FIA.
Additional information regarding the ECU software versions and setup may be found in the Appendix to the Technical Regulations.
8.2.2 All control sensors, actuators and FIA monitoring sensors will be specified and homologated by the FIA. Details of the homologation process may be found in the Appendix to the Technical Regulations.
Each and every component of the control system will be sealed and uniquely identified and their identities tracked through their life cycle.
These components and units may not be disassembled or modified in any way and seals and identifiers must remain intact and legible.
8.2.3 The control system wiring loom connectivity must be approved by the FIA.
All wiring looms must be built to ensure that each control sensor and each control actuator connected to the ECU is electrically isolated from logging-only sensors connected to either the ECU or a team data acquisition unit.
In general, there must be no active or passive electronic component in the control loom. Exceptions (e.g. termination resistors) must be approved by the FIA before use.
Additional wiring guidelines may be found in the Appendix to the Technical Regulations.
8.2.4 If sensor faults or errors are detected by the driver or by the on-board software, back-up sensors may be used and different settings may be manually or automatically selected. However, any back-up sensor or new setting chosen in this way must not enhance the performance of the car. Any driver default turned on during the start lockout period may not be turned off before the end of that period.
8.2.5 Pneumatic valve pressure may only be controlled via a passive mechanical regulator or from the ECU and its operation will be monitored by the ECU.

[FW17]

I think that is not allowed:

5.1.6 Pressure charging may only be effected by the use of a sole single stage compressor linked to a sole single stage exhaust turbine by a shaft assembly parallel to the engine crankshaft and within 25mm of the car centre line. The shaft must be designed so as to ensure that the shaft assembly, the compressor and the turbine always rotate about a common axis and at the same angular velocity, an electrical motor generator (MGU-H) may be directly coupled to it. The shaft may not be mechanically linked to any other device.

The idea was for the compressed air to run the turbine to generate more and ease back pressure. Bit it is not possible as all air must enter the engine only through the compressor and exit through the turbine, so cannot add more air into the system.

But as suggested by others recovery can be made to run ancillaries

[wuzak]

I think that is not allowed:

5.1.6 Pressure charging may only be effected by the use of a sole single stage compressor linked to a sole single stage exhaust turbine by a shaft assembly parallel to the engine crankshaft and within 25mm of the car centre line. The shaft must be designed so as to ensure that the shaft assembly, the compressor and the turbine always rotate about a common axis and at the same angular velocity, an electrical motor generator (MGU-H) may be directly coupled to it. The shaft may not be mechanically linked to any other device.

The idea was for the compressed air to run the turbine to generate more and ease back pressure. Bit it is not possible as all air must enter the engine only through the compressor and exit through the turbine, so cannot add more air into the system.

But as suggested by others recovery can be made to run ancillaries

Aside from that not sounding like it would be worth the wait, what ancillaries not required by the rules to be mechanically driven from the crankshaft would they be?

[roon]

Massage chair for driver.

I still like the idea for a water or oil pump that has a pump stage used only under braking, and an motor stage used during acceleration. Both modes of operation would flow fluid through the engine & radiators. An accumulator with a compressible gas would be incorporated into the system, storing & releasing pressurized fluid from, & to, the pump-motor. System design and/or regulators would prevent the engine & radiators from seeing high pressure fluids.

FW17, for your front axle pneumatic-ERS, I think you can draw the air post inlet, pre compressor, to feed the front axle compressor/ERS. Then dumped through the turbine. Satisfies the wording, maybe not the spirit.

[godlameroso]

Massage chair for driver.

I still like the idea for a water or oil pump that has a pump stage used only under braking, and an motor stage used during acceleration. Both modes of operation would flow fluid through the engine & radiators. An accumulator with a compressible gas would be incorporated into the system, storing & releasing pressurized fluid from, & to, the pump-motor. System design and/or regulators would prevent the engine & radiators from seeing high pressure fluids.

FW17, for your front axle pneumatic-ERS, I think you can draw the air post inlet, pre compressor, to feed the front axle compressor/ERS. Then dumped through the turbine. Satisfies the wording, maybe not the spirit.

How about something like the MAN hydro drive but instead of sending power to the wheels it sends it to the MGU-K, assuming of course you can make a complex enough hydraulic system incorporating the engine, and brake pedal to technically be compliant with the regulations.

[wuzak]

Massage chair for driver.

I still like the idea for a water or oil pump that has a pump stage used only under braking, and an motor stage used during acceleration. Both modes of operation would flow fluid through the engine & radiators. An accumulator with a compressible gas would be incorporated into the system, storing & releasing pressurized fluid from, & to, the pump-motor. System design and/or regulators would prevent the engine & radiators from seeing high pressure fluids.

FW17, for your front axle pneumatic-ERS, I think you can draw the air post inlet, pre compressor, to feed the front axle compressor/ERS. Then dumped through the turbine. Satisfies the wording, maybe not the spirit.

The water or oil pumps, I believe, are required to be driven from the crankshaft.

Also doubt that there is any legal way to have the compressed air "dumped through the turbine".

[PlatinumZealot]

You have to change that pressure into electrical energy at some stage.

How would you do that?

The MGUK is restricted to recovering 2MJ - whether it is from braking or form loading the engine under acceleration.

Also, as stated above, the non-ERS energy store can be no larger than 300kJ, while no more than 20kJ could be recovered by a non ERS (ie not MGUK or MGUH) system at greater than 2kW. The cost of the weight and complexity of such a system would surely be greater than the benefit?

I thought FW17 was implying using the stored air pressure to boost the engine through the compressor inlet so i was never thinking of conversion to electrical energy. So the system would be separate from the ERS. Basically a cheat system.

I think that is not allowed:

5.1.6 Pressure charging may only be effected by the use of a sole single stage compressor linked to a sole single stage exhaust turbine by a shaft assembly parallel to the engine crankshaft and within 25mm of the car centre line. The shaft must be designed so as to ensure that the shaft assembly, the compressor and the turbine always rotate about a common axis and at the same angular velocity, an electrical motor generator (MGU-H) may be directly coupled to it. The shaft may not be mechanically linked to any other device.

You could have a second "booster" turbine connected to the compressor shaft that uses the accumulated air pressure to spin up the compressor. It would not be piped to the main air stream but simply blows thru this booster turbine to atmosphere.

Almost like flywheel kers to the compressor except it is accumulated air pressure. In fact.. It probably more efficcient to use the compressed air to spin up a flywheel in one shot without accumulation tank then directly apply that flywheel to spin up the compressor shaft.

I dont the rules say you are forbidden from spinning up the compressor with other energy sources did it?

[roon]

The water or oil pumps, I believe, are required to be driven from the crankshaft.

Correct. I didn't mean to suggest otherwise.

Edit- For clarity, I'm suggesting something different from godlameroso. A system independent of the MGUs & ancillary power supply.