Sparkplug (ignition of F1 engines)

[Conceptual]

Why are the F1 teams and this new wave of engineers still using horrid poppit valve technology? Whoever makes the tech regs for F1 needs to look for advancements to these 100+ year old obsolete technology.

If I were to model a F1 engine, I sure as heck wouldnt waste my time on poppit valves.

I'd use this:

http://www.coatesengine.com/csrv.html

Better in every conceivable possible area of performance and environment. But alas, F1 isnt about new technology, its about old men (Bernie and Max) resisting change in an ever-changing world.

Chris

[Saribro]

Mercedes was working on a rotating valve tech, but yeah, regulations.
To be short, it's tech-noobs deciding the regulations, otherise, we'd have free engine regulations with fuel-flow limits instead.

[Tom]

Rotary valves themselves are at least 50 years old and have been used by Mercedes in Grand Prix racing before.This has been discussed before and I'm pretty sure we discovered it was against the regulations. I'm sure there's an even better system out there too.

[Conceptual]

Rotary valves themselves are at least 50 years old and have been used by Mercedes in Grand Prix racing before.This has been discussed before and I'm pretty sure we discovered it was against the regulations. I'm sure there's an even better system out there too.

Please direct me to the link of the better system?

[donskar]

Back in the 80's the French F1 team, AGS, worked with a French engineer on a rotary/sleeve valve engine, but the under-financed (and perhaps under-engineered) effort came to naught.

Is direct injection illegal in F1?

[Tom]

Please direct me to the link of the better system?

Its hard to convey emotion over the internet and apologise if my last statment sounded patronising, it wasn't intended too, just a bit too brief.

The honest truth is as of yet I haven't found such a system, however as soon as I read your post I got to thinking, I have a few ideas of my own and perhaps if I can progress them enough I will post them here shortly.

I've enjoyed reading your reacent posts Conceptual, its the kind of stuff I saw when I first joined the forum, and the reason why I came back. I didn't mean to sound like I was shooting you down as your completely right, everything can be improved.

[Carlos]

@Chris

Alternate Engines
viewtopic.php?t=4876

[MrT]

Lotus played about with electromagnetic valves so I've heard, which are obviously more optimal than rotary valves..... However, although they developed a working system it took so much power to drive the electromagnetic valves it wasn't viable.....

[Ciro Pabón]

Please direct me to the link of the better system?

Well, I wouldn't say rotary valves are better than anything else, but don't take my word: I'm also the kind of person that believes that racing is about technology, like it or not. We had a thread on it ("What is keeping rotary valves engines from F1?"), and I don't know if I'm overstepping if I say the forum agreed on four "problems":

- no variable timing (that's perhaps the answer to the thread's question)
- poor sealing (worse at high RPM)
- oil leaking (idem)
- position of spark plug is not optimal

Coates makes incredible claims on all these objections, and so I posted at that thread, giving the same link Conceptual gives. Coates claims their valves don't need oil and have perfect sealing, and somehow the spark plug position is not that affected.

I also showed and old Lotus system that included variable timing, before somebody accuses me of being an "enemy" of rotary valves...

Anyway, I believe they belong to the realm of the gadgets, for the time being, even if in that very thread somebody claimed to have been working in its development, but the project got nowhere because of "perfid" regulations. That was a year ago, exactly, and I remember vaguely reading something about Woking working on it, but you know how journalists are...

Of course, regulations are super-clear. I bet the SAE would be happy with a "valve race", if regulations were loosened, but I'm not sure if at this moment in history this research is relevant. ICE future seems bleak, given oil at 100 dollars a barrel.

[modbaraban]

This may be interesting:

Frankfurt show: Mercedes F700

September 12, 2007



One of the undoubted stars of the Frankfurt show isn't a car at all, but rather an engine: the DiesOtto in the Mercedes F700.

Not that the F700 is anything less than imposing (and more about that in a tick). But if the DiesOtto's performance and economy turns out to be even close to what Merc is quoting, well, it could revolutionise the combustion engine.

In brief, the DiesOtto is a 1.8-litre, four-cylinder petrol engine. That might sound small in a car the size of the F700 - which is longer than an S-Class - but Merc reckons that it'll produce comparable performance to the current 3.5-litre V6 in the S: 238bhp and a 0-60mph time of 7.5 seconds.

And all that with consumption of just 44.3mpg and CO2 emissions of 127g/km - astonishing figures for such a big car.

It's all down to the DiesOtto's ingenious ignition system, which combines the best bits of a petrol and diesel engine. On start-up, the engine runs in standard petrol mode, with spark plugs igniting petrol injected directly into the cylinder.

But once the engine is warm and cruising, it switches to a more efficient 'diesel mode', raising the compression ratio and deactivating the spark plugs.

[checkered]

This may be interesting

It is interesting

indeed. I raised both of my eyebrows when I first came across it, but didn't and don't have enough time at present to familiarise myself with the details right now, left to my own devices. The F700 presently lingers in somewhere in my links list, and was all but forgotten until your post connected a few neurons of mine (an ever growing to do list crowds my passive memory). Perhaps you can feature DiesOtto in the "alternative ICE" thread in a thorough but compact form? I think there was a Merc website that had a lot of info, perhaps you can find that, too.

[riff_raff]

Please direct me to the link of the better system?

http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/MUSEUM/P ... alveIC.htm

Sadly though, they did not include my rotary valve design and patent. Oh well........Obviously I'm biased, but overall mine really is a better design (US patent 5052349). Better flow and better chamber geometry.

[Ciro Pabón]

Thanks, riff raff, great reading. We've discussed some of the (older) versions. Your patent? Could you explain a little?

[checkered]

... the forum agreed on four "problems":

- no variable timing (that's perhaps the answer to the thread's question)
- poor sealing (worse at high RPM)
- oil leaking (idem)
- position of spark plug is not optimal

Well there's one

design that is pretty straightforward and seems to cover 3/4 of those (it isn't as advanced as to include variability yet). The RCV has been developed for fairly small displacement engines for the time being, but that's not to say that certain notions and principles couldn't be learned from it in developing larger scale solutions. I'm not suggesting that it can be scaled up "as is" to F1 proportions, not by any means. But it clearly has many upsides, especially with regard to high performance applications. RCV has an SAE paper that puts the details so eloquently that I need not repeat them here in a less satisfying form.

RCV Website - link
The Rotating Cylinder Valve 4-Stroke Engine, A Practical Alternative - link, 2002-32-1828 (SAE), by Keith LAWES, 757 kb
The Development of a Rotating Cylinder Valve, 4-stroke Engine for 2-Wheeler Applications - link, PDF, 2004 AutoExpo presentation

This thread, though, was originally about spark plugs and since I brought up laser ignition - and was subsequently informed by Carlos that Ciro had actually gone from theory to practice with this (with what I took as varied results) - I thought it could be of interest if I posted some of the latest information I've got on this (9/2007). There's a lot of research being done on this, since Dale, Smy & Clements first did their SAE paper "Laser ignited internal combustion engine, An experimental study" in 1978 which kinda set the ball rolling. In fact it's fairly easy to be inundated with all kinds of laser ignition related stuff with relatively clueless web searches. But anyway, here's a recent presentation by Bihari, Gupta & Senar (Force India, anyone? ) that includes interesting diagrams about fiber-optic delivery and de-multiplexing strategies for multi-cylinder laser ignited ICEs.

DEVELOPMENT OF AN ADVANCED LASER IGNITION SYSTEM - link, PDF
Fiber Coupled Laser Ignition - link, EECL, CSU is an ongoing program.
University of Liverpool has a slightly wider focus on lasers, applications included - link

I'm slightly partial to lasers, I've got to admit on a personal note. I somehow managed to make a lasting impression on one of my science teachers at a very young age by being able to discuss the issue at some depth, before we had even touched the subject in class.

And riff_raff, I'll second Ciro in his request to introduce us to your rotating valve, if you can. If not, I won't hold you to it, your other contributions more than compensate a little dissatisfaction on the part of my curiosity possibly not being satisfied in this regard. Your contributions are much appreciated.

[Conceptual]

I wasnt being anti-patronizing either by asking for a link to a better valve system. I am very open to having my mind changed, and since it is HARD to argue with solid facts, I tend to be easily swayed...

I am here to learn, and I too am anxious to hear and see more of rif-raff's CSRV system!!!