Peugeot diesels, why not in F1?

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
rodders47
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Peugeot diesels, why not in F1?

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Can anyone tell me what Horsepower do the Peugeot Engines in the Le Mans car produce?

Why is this type of fuel not adopted for F1 engines?
1/5th R/C car racing.. as good as it gets without the mega bucks

RacingManiac
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Re: Deisel Engines

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I am guessing 750-800bhp, since P1 Judd I think can make up to ~600-650bhp, and in a Racecar Engineering article about the Dome S102, the Dome designer have been quoted saying the car have to make up a 140bhp deficit on the diesel......

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Ciro Pabón
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Re: Deisel Engines

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The rational of using gasoline was to use the same fuel as regular cars, or so say the regulations and comments on them by FIA. The day we have more diesel engines than gasoline engines, this should be changed.

Other fuels more suitable for racing, like nitromethane, were excluded because they were dangerous.
Ciro

rodders47
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Re: Deisel Engines

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thanks Ciro,

Can anyone tell me if the Le Mans cars are running normal PUMP diesel fuel or is it specially designed for them?

If not, then given the technology of Diesel these days, with very little particulate matter emanating from the exhaust, and the better fuel mileage, then I would have thought that F1, which they say are always trying to improve to be GREEN, should adopt this fuel along with KERS.

Gues that would chuck a spanner in Mr Moseley's works =D>
1/5th R/C car racing.. as good as it gets without the mega bucks

zac510
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Re: Peugeot diesels, why not in F1?

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The ACO had to make a lot of rule changes to allow the diesel to be competitive. As it is it's a massively heavy 5.5 litre twin turbo V12 engine and last year Audi and Peugeot struggled to make the minimum weight because of the size of the engine.

If someone just rolled in now with a 3 litre diesel n/a v8 it would be far from competitive in F1. It wouldn't really chuck a spanner in Mosley's works, it'd just get laughed at.
No good turn goes unpunished.

Scotracer
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Re: Peugeot diesels, why not in F1?

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A naturally aspirated diesel engine is particularly pathetic. In a spark-ignition engine, you get around the lack of force induction by increasing revs (if you have a restricted displacement) but diesel engines do not rev well at all (compression-ignition combustion is quite sluggish).

So, to have the same power output as an petrol (spark-ignition engine) you need:

-more displacement
-forced-induction

The former means that weight is a premium and your large, heavy engine must be packaged somehow into the car and have adequate cooling. This issue is compounded with the fact that since diesel engines run such high compression ratios (over 25:1) they must be built stronger and to closer tolerances. This further increases weight and size of the engine.

In essence...diesel just isn't viable for F1.

The reason diesel cars are winning at Le Mans is the fact they are 1.5 litres larger in displacement compared to the petrol cars...you allow the cars 5.5 litres of displacement and forced-induction and see what happens ;)
Powertrain Cooling Engineer

DaveKillens
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Re: Peugeot diesels, why not in F1?

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Due to the limitations of diesel fuel burning, 5,000 RPM is the upper limit. IMO, F1 fans want to see and HEAR engines screaming and wailing at full song. Me too, I presonally want to hear engines in anger.
Racing should be decided on the track, not the court room.

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Deisel Engines

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Ciro Pabón wrote:The rational of using gasoline was to use the same fuel as regular cars, or so say the regulations and comments on them by FIA. The day we have more diesel engines than gasoline engines, this should be changed.

Other fuels more suitable for racing, like nitromethane, were excluded because they were dangerous.
actually in Europe we have more diesel than petrol. this may change now that diesel is more expansive. in my view it comes down to better fuel economy. if road cars go diesel due to higher efficiency then F1 should also have a look and probably will.

if power is regulated by the ECU and all development is unrestricted all engineering would go into fuel economy. that would not be bad. people could use wjatever engine concept or fuel they want.

this year Le Mans was using synthetic diesel made from biogas in a gas to liquid process using only waste materials. that is a fuel of the future.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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Ciro Pabón
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Re: Peugeot diesels, why not in F1?

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I'm not sure if Europe already uses more diesel than gasoline in cars, maybe you have time to look for statistics and correct my impression.

The last time I checked (a year or so ago) only 40% of new cars sold in Europe used diesel. On the other hand, diesel is the most used fuel in the world, more than gasoline and it has been in that position for a long time:

"... the world consumed 30.2 million barrels of diesel and related distillate fuels, 16 percent more than the 26.1 million barrels of gasoline in 2006" -- British Petroleum --

You have to take in account a couple of things:
  • 1. Diesel is NOT by itself less contaminant than gas. It has a higher energy content, but it's only more efficient in terms of contamination with new forced induction engines and new higher torque engines. On the "darker" side, it produces more particulates (soot). You also have to control sulphur in oil and do something with the byproducts of filtering that sulphur: if you release them or use them, you get acid rain, because the burnt sulphur goes into the clouds and converts into sulphuric acid.
    2. Besides having more unit energy, diesel is burned more efficiently, which means that you get 30% more mileage. This, in turn, implies that diesel makes easier to comply with Euro 4 norm when you look at contaminants per km or per liter.
    3. Because of 1. and 2. most countries tax diesel less than gas, because they have to spend less dollars on energy imports. I think that the difference means 1 dollar difference at the pumps in Europe, but feel free to correct me.
    4. The 30% difference in mileage is kind of illusory: you need 25% more oil to produce a liter of diesel than a liter of gasoline.
    5. In developing countries, the "smart move" by europeans is kind of catastrophic: many countries, mine included, still use high sulfur diesel, which means that the engines developed to achieve less contamination produce more contamination than gas engines in these places (typical!) and we will see acid rain increasing in the developing world, damaging forests. Who cares? We do in Colombia, but not everybody is taking the "play with your head raised" approach of soccer, and the headlines in newspapers that claim diesel is automatically better don't help a bit.

Even with low sulphur, you have to filter soot and that's not perfect, because diesel engines produce A LOT of soot. I quote The California Air Resources Board: "... The CARB has concluded that diesel soot is responsible for 70% of the state's risk of cancer from airborne toxics." This happens after using extremely good soot filters, so... to make a joke, we're saving the polar bears at the cost of our own emphisemas in old age... :)

As for energy content, I also quote the Union of Concerned Scientists:
"Making a gallon of diesel fuel requires 25% more oil and emits 17% more heat-trapping greenhouse gases than gasoline reformulated with MTBE. Similarly, diesel requires 17% more oil and emits 18% more heat-trapping gases than gasoline reformulated with ethanol. This means that diesel fuel's advantages from its higher per-gallon energy content and better performance on greenhouse gases are partially offset by the impact of diesel's fuel-production process."
The UCS, on the other hand, reports in The Diesel Dilemma: Diesel's Role in the Race for Clean Cars that the best option is an hybrid with a diesel "prime mover".

Different governments have different incentives: Europe is pushing strict limits on vehicle CO2 emissions, which favors diesel. Europe has easier diesel emissions limits on nitrogen oxides (NOx) and particulate matter (PM) than the U.S., but European compliance deadlines are much tighter, due to early-introduction tax incentives.

The main reason for that incentives?

A technological one: while diesel particle filters (DPFs) of 95% efficiency are commercial today, elliminating most of the soot, a NOx catalyst of greater than 65% efficiency, capable of hitting a 0.2 gram/kilometer NOx+HC limit, is "today technically not feasible". Getting inside a 0.1 g/km NOx+HC limit will require NOx catalyzer efficiency over 80%... which means that NOx (smog) which is higher for diesel engines, cannot be filtered. So, if you cannot do it with today's technology, the governments allow you to contaminate more.

In english: expect more smog the more diesel engines you have (and less carbon dioxide).

"For near-term Euro 4 compliance, VW expects to use a DPF for larger (100 kW +) vehicles along with a NOx reduction catalyst (over 150 kW), both requiring "sulfur free" (10 ppm sulfur) ULSD... Customers consider mainly the difference in gasoline and diesel fuel costs"

-- VW's Klaus-Peter Schindler --

I don't know for how long diesel will be cheaper than gas: "Diesel use in developed economies is growing about 2 percent this year, or 200,000 barrels a day, while gasoline use in the United States is falling for the first time since 1991, according to Merrill Lynch & Co. The trend will continue, boosting diesel's premium to gasoline by 31 percent, to more than $190 a ton in Europe by year-end, as shown by swap contracts from broker PVM Oil International."

June 11, 2008: Diesel prices outpace gas as traders bet on the spread

I conclude that the oil crunch we have at hand will impact diesel prices more than gas prices.

So, it's not such a clear case that automatically means that F1 HAS to move to diesel to diminish impact of engines on environment or on your pocket.

This is kind of a summary of gas vs diesel:

Image

If you want to choose a vehicle, check first two resources:

FuelEconomy.gov
EPA's Green Vehicle Guide

"Diesel and dust is what we breathe;
This land don't change and we don't leave.
Some people live, some never die;
This land don't change this land must lie.
Some people leave, always return;
This land must change or land must burn."

-- Midnight Oil, "Warakurna" -- :)

Sorry, I got caught in the issue, I won't post that much again... :)
Ciro

Carbon
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Joined: 19 Jan 2004, 19:02
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Re: Peugeot diesels, why not in F1?

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Thanks Ciro =D> , that is a very interesting read, and highly insightful.

Carlos
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Joined: 02 Sep 2006, 19:43
Location: Canada

Re: Peugeot diesels, why not in F1?

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There's a wide range of diesel particulate catalytic and filter technologies:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_particulate_filter
I had read somewhere that the LMP Peugeot 908 was their 1 millionth car fitted with a catalytic particulate converter/filter.

I have also read that the world's marine diesel fleet burning 'bunker oil' contaminate the air with more sulfur and particulates than all diesel powered land transport and international standards are starting to be considered.

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Peugeot diesels, why not in F1?

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Sulphur free diesel has been available in the EU for a long time except in the UK where they apparently do not care for such things. The US have decided to quickly introduce suphur free diesel last year and I do not know how soon this will become effective.

The catalytic soot filters we have in Germany are so good you do not realise any difference to gasoline cars (as long as they are in working order).

The interesting thing is that modern diesels will burn GTL which is comming onstream in quantities very soon in Europe. This process converts natural gas (methane) into very clean synthetic diesel.

The process can also use biogas produced from organic waste that is more and more used in Germany instead of being deposited. You will be amazed how much organic waste is produced by our society (farming, gardening, kitchen and restaurants, sewage, food processing, animal waste).

Actually it isn't even necessary to run modern diesel engines entirely with GTL or Bio GTL. You can use dual fuel processes with 20% GTL and 80% biogas and avoid conversion losses. If cars are initially made with dual fuel tanks they will not even use much more space for storing the fuel. certainly less than needed for hydrogen.

and you can make such such engines hybrid by adding brake and heat regeneration. so a lot of potential is still there.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)